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Kettlebell Minimum effective dose

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jhpowers

jhpowers

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Hi all,

I've a 47 year old male with about four years of kettlebell experience and have worked with various SFG's over time. I have to confess, however, that I've had a fair amount of program ADD over the years and have never really completed the standards. I'm just coming off of 9 months of a custom program that a local SFG worked out for me. (Best progress that I've ever made, but I needed to cut back on expenses so I decided to go it on my own for a while.)

So, I've decided to bite the bullet and stick to S & S, but I've got one significant concern. I'm very committed to my training, but I often have long work days. I can consistently workout 4 days a week but rarely more than that and occasionally I have 2 or 3 workout weeks.

So my question is, is that below the minimum effective dose to make progress on S & S? Most people seem to stick to at least 5 consistent days per week. I can do that occasionally, but I think that it will be the exception rather than the rule.

Thanks for your input.
 
@jhpowers 2-3 days per week of solid focused practice should be enough with your level of experience to illicit a training effect. You may not progress as quickly as desired, but over time your consistent efforts will keep you on track.
 
@jhpowers- When crunched for time I set my alarm an hour early and get S&S done first thing. My training is done and I feel much better through the day. When I can't get to a gym I do body weight training and naked TGUs. Best of luck to you in your training.
 
@ShawnM - Thanks for the input, but I'm up now at 5:00...I think that waking up at 4:00 would break me.

@natewhite39 - I think that I can typically get in 4x per week (occasionally 3x or 5x). I'm encouraged that you think that I could make progress at only 2-3x. Does anyone else have any experience getting to Simple on a fairly consistent 4x per week schedule?
 
@jhpowers - I train in the morning at 430am - and you're right to not push your limit (5am is nothing to sneeze at - that's early enough) - i get up and train each morning so i can get it in before i have to go to work, but i rarely, if ever, get enough rest and my training is detrimentally effected by it - but i do it anyway because i like the short term gratification of knowing i am sticking to my program and that i have accomplished something good for myself each morning - but in reality, more rest would probably do me better than more training.

now - to your question - i believe that getting by with 2-3 sessions per week and an occasional 4 or 5 is plenty to see progress with S&S- eat well - rest as much as possible and truly focus on your technique while you are training. if you are "all in" on those 2-3 sessions per week - you will see progress - good progress - much better than doing nothing and much better than scattered program which constantly changes. good luck and all the best!
 
@jhpowers @Keep Lifting + 1 This...

Keep Lifting said:
@jhpowers -

now - to your question - i believe that getting by with 2-3 sessions per week and an occasional 4 or 5 is plenty to see progress with S&S- eat well - rest as much as possible and truly focus on your technique while you are training. if you are "all in" on those 2-3 sessions per week - you will see progress - good progress - much better than doing nothing and much better than scattered program which constantly changes. good luck and all the best!
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I reached the simple standards training on average 4 days per week. Sometimes 2 days per week, sometimes 3, rarely 5.
 
@jhpowers I am where you are at...same age (almost 46) and work long hours as well (hospital shiftwork), so I hear you about the being tired. I currently do a 8h day/8h evening schedule rather than 12hrs like I am used to, but even these can get long....sometimes my evenings do not end at midnight, and I am not home and in bed until 03-0400h and then back the next afternoon. This is what is happening with me currently this last two weeks, and my upper back is a bit tweaky and stiff on the one side (getting better) so I am resting this next few days....have not done S&S since Tuesday.

Some days like that I am able to do S&S before I go to work, especially if my shift was not too hectic and I got food and rest breaks and slept well the day before, some days I know even a light day with the shadow swings and lighter slow getups will feel awful and I skip those and just rest and do things like Original Strength resets, some joint mobility, naked turkish getups, or maybe a few swings only to grease the groove practicing patterning and cues . I first started exercising 10 years ago, and once I hit my 40's I definitley found my recovery changed....I needed more joint mobility and things like that, and less days of really hard exercise, which is why for now I have shied away from many of those all-out 6 week programs.

Overall, I would say I do S&S for 3-5 days a week. When I am on evenings in my schedule (7 evenings over a 10-14 days stretch every 6 weeks) it tends to more to the 2-3 days a week rather than 5, but I know that eventually my schedule will change, and I will have more time to practice. I figure that it would be better to practice well when I am rested, than to practice with bad technique just to "get the time in". I pay for that later with feeling even worse sometimes. That is what light days are for....and I may have to take them more often than those example tables in the book show. And I find when I do take some light days, and rest days, when life/work schedule are grooving along better I am stronger when I come back. This is the pattern I am seeing in the almost 6 months I have been doing this.

And as others said, the minimum dose in the book is 2 days a week.
 
I would personally say:

- unless you are not doing any other program as a primary program (in which case SAS twice a week is enough), 3x/week is minimum. 4x/week (or more often) you will have much better results. Don't forget that SAS already is a minimalistic program. Do less, and you will end up not with minimum, but with nothing (soreness, no results).

Anyway - SAS is very flexible, don't worry if you some weeks miss your practice. Just try not to miss it very often.
 
Pavel Macek said:
3x/week is minimum. 4x/week (or more often) you will have much better results. Don't forget that SAS already is a minimalistic program. Do less, and you will end up not with minimum, but with nothing (soreness, no results).
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Absolutely agree. I started seeing results when I went to 4x or more per week with S&S practice. The practice before that time was good, and I did have some progress (skill, movement patterns, mobility, understanding kettlebell movements)... but I wouldn't say I had "results" (strength and conditioning improvements, progressing with weight I could practice with) until I went to 4x or more per week.
 
I have to say that 3-5x per week resonates with my experience on other programs. I would often make progress until I stalled out on 3x per week, but on 4x per week I would make gains. Honestly, with my life 5x is not something that can happen regularly.

I like the flexibility of S&S. Since it is the same workout every day, it seems like the sequencing is less important than with a program that, for example, has light, medium and heavy days.
 
If you have enough time on the days you do train, you could add some volume to those days with some front squats and clean and presses or anything else you want to practice. A few reps at the top of every minute for 10 minutes would get you the additional stimulus.
 
@Bro Mo - Interesting idea. Would you do this in an intuitive way? For example, on the weeks when I know I am only going to be able to work out 2-3x add in some double presses and front squats for extra volume (and there will be extra recovery time) , but then just do S & S on the weeks when I am getting in 4-5 workouts.
 
Yep, that is basically exactly how I approach my own training. I make a few weekly schedules based on 2, 3, 4, and 5 days and spread out my weekly volume across them accordingly and use whatever weekly schedule fits that week. I use it two ways: 1) fit my training to my schedule and 2) adjust my volume over time. If I'm starting something new, I may only do it twice a week and work up to more frequency to error on the side of too much recovery. Regardless, my objective is adequate recovery.
 
@jhpowers

I found that 4 or 5 times a week worked best until I got quite a way beyond Simple. Then, I needed to do less or something different for a couple of weeks.

You could split your swings and get up sessions. When I was on paternity leave, as I left the house in the morning I would do 100 swings on my doorstep. I would then do the get ups later on when I got back home and fit them in around chores. I still do this with other exercises e.g. do a set of heavy presses then empty the dishwasher, then another set of presses and put out the garbage then a set of deadlifts / snatches and serve up supper. This allows you to get the moves in while continuing with your daily routine.
 
From my experience S&S works in different ways depending on how often I do it. At four times a week I was getting stronger, at seven times a week I was getting stronger and leaner. I found, as the book predicts, that it is important to exercise even when sore - sore doesn't mean I'm injured. Thus, seven times a week is best. I also progressed faster with the programme. The question for me has been what to add to it, and I've found one cycle of ROP daily is perfect. By the end of both, my body has quite had enough, and yet I'm ready for progress the next day. I've recently thrown in one cycle of Naked Warrior as well. I'd better be careful not to buy any more Pavel books or I'll end up adding even more exercises!
 
How do you guys gauge adequate recovery? I do not have my copy of S&S handy at the moment, but I believe it mentions that you aren't too sore or tired the next morning as a main indicator. But, I'm always tired when my alarm goes off at 5 AM :) Just curious what indicators you guys find reliable for yourselves.
 
Chris Beasley said:
How do you guys gauge adequate recovery? I do not have my copy of S&S handy at the moment, but I believe it mentions that you aren't too sore or tired the next morning as a main indicator. But, I'm always tired when my alarm goes off at 5 AM :) Just curious what indicators you guys find reliable for yourselves.
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On waking up tired, go to sleep earlier, if you can. Or if it's not the hours of sleep that you lack, maybe it's the quality. Shawn Stevenson's "Sleep Smarter" is a good sleep hygiene book.

But beyond that, I find that the most useful thing is to have a similar warm-up routine -- a little movement prep/mobility of whatever kind you like (OS resets, walking, stretching/yoga, whatever) then the S&S warm-up, and do this no matter what (in other words, save your decision for after this), and if you pay close attention while you're doing this, this will tell you if you are adequately recovered enough to do the full S&S workout that day.

So listen very closely to your body during your warm-up; you are adequately recovered if you feel:
  • energized... not sluggish
  • pain free... not hurting
  • symmetrical... not "jacked up"
  • flexible... not stiff
  • pliable muscles... not sore
  • coordinated and responsive... not jerky or clumsy
  • calm... not anxious
  • easy breathing... not anxious chest breathing
  • confident... not intimidated
Some of these things can be fixed with a little bit of extra mobility work. And others can be overcome with mental determination to do your training anyway. But others, and too many of them on the "negative" side, probably mean that you need a day off, or that you are overdoing it in your daily practice and need to do less sets with your challenging weight.

This is sort of my own way of going about it, and some of it I've learned by monitoring my HRV each day with the Elite HRV app. Everyone probably has to find their own way, but maybe you'll find something useful there.
 
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