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Barbell Input wanted on Barbell + KB program!

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Nils BA Sfg1

Nils BA Sfg1

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Hi everyone,

I'm all new to this forum although I have been training with barbells since I was 14 and KB's since 2012. Certified as an SFG1 beginning of November this year, I would now like to ask for some collective wisdom on where to go from here as I am neither a PT/ coach nor particularly knowledgeable about program design.

I am trying to create a mixed program for myself based on barbell lifts (1-2 days a week) and KB lifts (1- 2 days a week) with the main focus being on strength in the classic BB deadlift and squat, but without sacrificing the explosivity/ cardio that my KB work has been giving me. I favor brief, rather intense workouts, max 45 min, preferably less. I have trouble figuring out how to make this program as efficient as possible without creating overuse and overtraining of the elbow and SI joints that have been giving me pains in the past when I followed exactly the same routine for months and months.

I am a 31 year old healthy, fit male with no previous injuries or diseases. 1,86cm tall, 95 kgs heavy, with a body type that is more the hardgainer "long legs, long arms but short torso". Current deadlift 1RM is around 170 kgs, squat 1RM around 120kgs, can do 1RM KB presses on each side with the 36 kg bell.
Concerning pains and aches, when doing lots of BB deadlifts (sumo with reverse grip) I ended up with pain in the right elbow, and I also have an SI joint that flares up from time to time (right side of lower back) from heavy deadlifting as well. I see a chiropractor for this every three months, nothing to worry about according to him as this seems to be common among lifters.

Having recently read Pavel's "Beyond Bodybuilding", I stumbled across a program that seems great, two days a week it's Deadlift 3S x 4R, Squat 3S x 4R and Bench 6S x 4R, finishing of with hanging leg raises or weighted pull ups. This can then be combined with 1-2 days a week of explosive ballistic work with the KB.

Problem is, this program will almost certainly make the SI joint and the elbow painful due to lots of deadlifting and squatting.... So to the experienced coaches/ lifters out there, what are your thoughts on this?
Thank you for your time :)

Nils
 
Nils BA Sfg1 said:
Concerning pains and aches, when doing lots of BB deadlifts (sumo with reverse grip) I ended up with pain in the right elbow, and I also have an SI joint that flares up from time to time (right side of lower back) from heavy deadlifting as well. I see a chiropractor for this every three months, nothing to worry about according to him as this seems to be common among lifters.
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First, welcome to the forum and passing SFGI! Great work.

Second, safety is always a part of performance and never the exception. Aches and pains are your body's way of saying, "hey, you may want to pay attention over HERE." I would not recommend stacking more fitness on top of disfunction. You are describing pain in very common areas for practicing gireviks. Take a look around the forum as there are many threads that discuss these issues. Thank you and all the best in your future practice.
 
Thanks Nate! I appreciate the input :) I will indeed check out the rest of the forum for this, I'm all new to it so haven't really had the time yet. Thanks again!
 
Hi Nils. If you find my training log in the member's only training log section, you'll see some of the issues I've been experiencing with my back for the past few months. They might be of interest.

Combining kettlebell and barbell seems to be something a lot of us are interested according to the, "What's Next," thread in the main forum, so you're in good company!

If it's volume and not intensity that causes flair, ups, look for a higher intensity, lower volume program like 5/3/1. You could do something as simple as 100 swings before your barbell lift, then your barbell lift of the day, skip the accessory work (form 5/3/1), and go home. You could mix it up by doing swings 2x/week, and some longer slow and steady work after your barbell lift 2x/week (I like to walk at an incline on the treadmill with weight in my backpack). Our you could do the barbell lift first, followed by a KB complex. Just a few ideas.
 
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Simple & Sinister is a great choice for the 2x/week kettlebell work. As a bonus, the wrist extension on the (down-arm of the) TGU may help a little with preventing elbow discomfort. I might also suggest some push-ups or handstand work (could be done as warm-up or cool-down on any training day).

As for the DL/Squat... First, make sure to squeeze your triceps (full elbow lock) when deadlifting. That's a small thing that I've often seen that will make a big difference with preventing elbow discomfort. As for programming... Just pick something simple and stick with it. That usually works the best in the long-run. (And there is no shortage of decent programs on the SF blog, this forum, Pavel's books, and other good sites.)
 
@Ryan, I don't mean to be nit-picky here, but those of us with elbows that hyperextend can't do this

Ryan Toshner said:
make sure to squeeze your triceps (full elbow lock) when deadlifting
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I didn't realize my elbows hyperextended until it was pointed out to me about 2-3 years ago, and my deadlifts are actually happier now that I aim for neutral rather than flexing my triceps. My elbows don't hyperextend much, but you don't need much. :)

I wonder if anyone has any statistic on what percentage of the population have elbows and/or knees that hyperextend? My knees also do, again not very much.

For everyone who is _not_ weird like me, please follow Ryan's advice. :)

-S-
 
Wow, thanks guys for all the feedback!! James, I will check out your training logs as soon as I have a little more time (lots of stuff at work right now) and thanks for the links Pet :) Ryan, I am already trying the "squeeze the triceps" thing on the deadlift, but it seems like as soon as I have the reverse grip with the right palm forward I get pain in the right elbow. Since I am trying to switch arms for the reverse grip between sets to offset any imbalances this is a problem as I have to stick to left palm facing forward and right hand neutral to be pain free. I wish there was an SFL one day-workshop near here, so my deadlifts could be checked by an SFL. Thanks Steve, I will have to ask someone to take a look at my deads to see if I hyperextend my elbows :)

Thanks again for all you advice and input, and have a great week!

Nils
 
Nils BA Sfg1 said:
I will have to ask someone to take a look at my deads to see if I hyperextend my elbows
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Don't bother - I don't think it's common, and particularly if you haven't had elbow issues to date, I wouldn't worry about it.

-S-
 
Definitely lock the triceps(if you are not weird), to help create tension in the lats, and upper back. People who mixed grip deadlift, and have a tendency to curl(bend the arms) during the deadlift, learning to lock the triceps is a matter of safety. Your bicep and shoulder will thank you. I saw a guy tear his bicep tendon during an Axel Continental Clean. It's a lot different from a deadlift, but if you pull with the arms and not the hips you open yourself to injury.

This is a little graphic, but it has a scared straight effect on people pulling with the arms during the deadlift, and excuse me, "assholeing" weight around.
 
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Geoff Chafe said:
Definitely lock the triceps(if you are not weird), to help create tension in the lats, and upper back. People who mixed grip deadlift, and have a tendency to curl(bend the arms) during the deadlift, learning to lock the triceps is a matter of safety. Your bicep and shoulder will thank you. I saw a guy tear his bicep tendon during an Axel Continental Clean. It's a lot different from a deadlift, but if you pull with the arms and not the hips you open yourself to injury.

This is a little graphic, but it has a scared straight effect on people not pulling with the arms during the deadlift, and excuse me, "assholeing" weight around.
Click to expand...

Oh man, that was tough to watch. If you didn't believe we're more rubber band than piston take a look. Also, am I crazy or was that Andrew Dice Clay in the middle of the montage?
 
Hello,

To lock your triceps, may be some heavy presses can be interesting. You could put a special focus on the top of the movement.

Something like 5 sets of 10 for the swings and a ladder (1 - 2 - 3 or kind of) of heavy presses ?

HSPU could also be an option, but it is not KB anymore.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Geoff Chafe said:
Definitely lock the triceps(if you are not weird), to help create tension in the lats, and upper back. People who mixed grip deadlift, and have a tendency to curl(bend the arms) during the deadlift, learning to lock the triceps is a matter of safety. Your bicep and shoulder will thank you. I saw a guy tear his bicep tendon during an Axel Continental Clean. It's a lot different from a deadlift, but if you pull with the arms and not the hips you open yourself to injury.

This is a little graphic, but it has a scared straight effect on people pulling with the arms during the deadlift, and excuse me, "assholeing" weight around.
Click to expand...


Ouch that was difficult to watch! That video makes a good argument for double overhand or hook grip when Deadlifting :-D
 
For a two day a week plan, Pavel had a plan on deads and bench one day and squat and bench another. S&S twice a week if doing other work.
 
Hello,

Here is an interesting Pavel's article about programming principles of bb, kb and bdw.

It may help to decide what to know (or not)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Man, that Bicep Tear Compilation video was nasty. Double overhand grip only for now on.
 
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