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Barbell Olympic lifts

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Oscar

Oscar

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I haven't seen much about the Olympic lifts here at the forum. I'm just curious why. Not even at the training logs. Maybe it's because they are difficult?

I don't have much experience with these, mostly practiced them when I did Crossfit. I always found them to be a lot of fun, in particular the power variations, which I found easier.

They seem to bring good results to Olympic weightlifters :rolleyes: but well, those guys know what they are doing.

I also think these are not included in SFL, right? So just wondering why.
 
I am interested in them. They should be good in developing power and that should be good for athleticism in general. At the moment I'm not interested in them enough to make them a priority of any kind, but they could be a good addition to a variety day.

I haven't really started learning the lifts on my own. I suppose I do a barbell clean or two every time I train. Maybe I should do it some more. I really love the kettlebell clean, so maybe the feeling would carry over to the barbell.

There should be some good coaching in the city nearby. I've been intrigued by it and have had a look when they have some courses going on. But it's too much of a luxury for me now. Maybe in the future.
 
The Olympic Lifts take a lot of time and dedication to learn, preform, and progress them effectively. Without the required focused effort you are headed for a lot of frustration and maybe injury. People who are not athletic and flexible have a long road ahead. People get discouraged very quickly when they realize the work involved, and the hard earned strength you will lose. You will be using light weights for a long time.

If you are young, athletic, and flexible you are most of the way there.

If you just want to Power Clean or Jerk to add power exercises to your strength training that is very realistic. If you want to dabble in the competition lifts you will not preform classic technique well. You will most likely develop some mutant Crossfit technique, arm pulling, and turtle back power cleans.

I never call the lifts difficult. They are technical. The Snatch is the most studied human movement, with volumes written on a lift that is executed in a fraction of a second. The Jerk is the most explosive movement in sport. I learned the lifts at a young age and competed at a regional and national level in Canada. I would not let anyone use more than technique plates for 1000 reps and until I am confident they can fail safely. I have not encountered many people who make it past that first step.

I have added in front squats in an effort to add back Cleans when I am ready. I have lost all my flexibility and technique. So much pressing, Deadlifting, and swinging in the last few years has completely screwed up my Pull.

There are exceptions like Morgan King and Colin Burns, but it's harder to learn Classic Weightlifting Technique later in life and a relatively short amount of time. I don't want to discourage anyone interested in the competition lifts, but you should understand what is required to be successful.
 
Oscar said:
I also think these are not included in SFL, right? So just wondering why.
Click to expand...

No, they aren't part of SFL.

My impression is that Olympic lifts are to barbell as GS is to kettlebell. It is a competitive sport. For those who wish to use the tools for physical training and strength, it is not the preferred method.
 
@Geoff Chafe that makes a lot of sense, and that is what I suspected.

@Anna C I get the comparison. Maybe those moves are so technical and so specific that it's only worth doing them if you want to compete in them, as Geoff said.

One thing I'm curious about is the use of the power clean for power development. That move seems to be more beginner friendly than all other Olympic lifts, and also also safer right? Also, it seems to target power in a more specific manner than the powerlifts, that are more focused in strength.

So let's say we have an athlete who haa already decent strength (2x BW deadlift or similar), and wants to train power. Which would be the weapon of choice for his training? Let's say he is a rugby player and wants to improve his 40 yards time, or power in general.
 
@Oscar in your example above you will get differing opinions from different coaches. While some coaches still really like power cleans for their team sport athletes, it is my opinion that the athletes will get more bang for their buck by training exercises that are limited by "output" more than they are by "technique" if that makes sense. Even power cleans are technical enough that most athletes will not truly be able to display all their potential power because they will be limited by the technique of the movements. On the other hand, if they focused on a power development protocol with kettlebell swings they would actually be able to truly show all their power in every rep because the technical demands won't act as a "restrictor plate" on their power as they might with the barbell power clean. Keep in mind most team sport athletes will also benefit from including things like single leg strength, sled sprints (can be used for speed development or endurance based on the protocol), jumping drills, and reaction drills, so your primary "power" drill is only one piece of the puzzle.
 
@Oscar

I agree with @Tony Gracia.

Rugby is a pretty time intensive sport in terms of learning skills and drills (I actually think it would be improved as a sport if the elite teams spent more time on the pitch and less in the gym - but that's another debate).

I think you could get a lot out of heavy kettlebell swings as a simple technique for training explosive hip power. For rugby this would carry over into both sprint speed and power into the tackle without having to spend the time to learn the complex moves for olympic type lifts.
 
I think you could get a lot out of heavy kettlebell swings as a simple technique for training explosive hip power. For rugby this would carry over into both sprint speed and power into the tackle without having to spend the time to learn the complex moves for olympic type lifts.
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Kettlebell Swings For Power

This is a good point.

1) Kettlebell Swings are an excellent method of developing Power.

However, the main isssue is the majority of individual don't perform them with enough weight. More on that in a minute.

2) Kettlebell Swing provide an element that Olympic Movement don't.

a) Kettlebells have an Eccentric Component that Olympic Movement do not.

b) Kettlebell develop the Stretch Reflex more so than Olympic Movements.

Allowing the Kettlebell to drop back in to the hole, then bounding and exploding up with it.

3) Since the Kettlebell Swing is a simpler movement, it is quickly learned.

Kettlebell Swing Loading

For optimal Power Training, individual need to perform Kettlebell Swing with between 50 to 100% of their body weight.

Example

An individual that is 200 lbs needs to perform the Kettlebell Swing with between 100 to 200 lbs.

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

Dr Bret Contreras research demonstrated that Heavy Kettlebell Swing are necessary for Power Development.

The Hungarian Core Blaster

The Hungarian Core Blaster is desigened for Heavy Swings. It is cheap; the cost to make it is around $20.00.

It is also adjustable. You can increase the weight, as you like.

I used 175 lbs on some of my Swings and need more weight.

The Hungarian Core Blaster requires a wide stance allowing you to drop the weight back into the hole.

Another method that allows for a narrow stance is...

Dumbbell Swings

Holding Dumbbell at your side, swing them forward and allowing them to drop back works.

Kenny Croxdale
 
The Jerk is the most explosive movement in sport.
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The Snatch Is The Most Explosive

All of of the Olympic Movement are Explosive.

However, the Snatch is recognized as the Most Explosive due to...

Two Primary Components of Explosive Strength

1) "Starting Strength": This amount to how you essentially explode out of the hole, like a Sprinter coming out of the blocks.

"Starting Strength is like first gear on your car.

2) "Acceleration Strength": This is often referred to as "Explosive Strength".

It like second gear on your car. Once you hit your top speed in "First Gear" ("Starting Strength"), you hit "Second Gear" ("Acceleration Strength").

One of the keys is once you have hit you top speed in "First Gear" is to increase your speed even more in "Second Gear".

Source: "The Fundamentals of Special Strength, Verkhoshansky.

Speed Training

Speed Training it optimally developed with lower loads; whereas Power is best developed with moderate loads.

High Pulls

Also, greater Power Output is obtain with High Pulls with the Snatch High Pulls and Power Clean High Pulls.

Dr Greg Haff's noted you can High Pull up 120% of your 1 Repetition Max Snatch and Squat Clean increase Power Output development.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Thanks all, appreciate all the feedback.

Tony Gracia said:
@Oscar in your example above you will get differing opinions from different coaches. While some coaches still really like power cleans for their team sport athletes, it is my opinion that the athletes will get more bang for their buck by training exercises that are limited by "output" more than they are by "technique" if that makes sense. Even power cleans are technical enough that most athletes will not truly be able to display all their potential power because they will be limited by the technique of the movements.
Click to expand...

Tony, this does make a lot of sense. It´s also in line with @Geoff Chafe comment that oneself would have to reduce weights significantly for a long time while learning technique, therefore not being able to increase strength or power.

Well, it all makes a lot of sense to me now:

1) To train power, use heavy kettlebell swings.
2) use olympic lifts to train for olympic lifting.

Now that I think about it, olympic lifting is a very technical sport, such as soccer or tennis. It does happen to require a lot of power, but that´s just one aspect of it. So using olympic lifts to develop power would be similar to prescribing soccer to develop speed.
 
@Oscar If you don't try the lifts you will never know how you will do with them. I would recommend studying intently, getting coaching, and conservative programming. There are strength exercises related to the Olympic Lifts, but I would not recommend Deadlifting, Swinging, or Strict pressing with learning the lifts. A hinge is not a Pull. You can do lots of Front Squats, Back Squats, Clean Deadlifts, Clean Pulls, RDL, Jerk Variations, Snatch Balances, Overhead Squats, etc.

For an introduction to The Lifts add the Bergner Warmup and Skills Transfer Exercises to the beginning of your barbell practice and keep a 28mm Dowel rod at hand to practice outside the gym to see how they feel, and if they peak your interest. That is pretty easy to implement. Give that a fair test. The Snatch is almost always taught first because if you can Snatch you can Clean.

MIKE'S GYM | Articles

MIKE'S GYM | Articles

You may be a natural.
 
To add to Geoff's post above: when you're new to something, it's often best just to do the thing until your skill at the thing has sufficiently improved that you can call yourself good or competent at it. At that point, you're an intermediate practitioner and no longer a beginning, and you can start to look into assistance work and whatever else may help you continue to move forward.

-S-
 
@Oscar: I would say it differently. The full lifts are perhaps not very useful for most athletes. However, a power snatch from the hang is hard to beat in terms of power development and really not difficult to learn. If the shoulders are a problem, high pulls are excellent as well.

That being said if you spent a few months with a coach the full lifts are very accessible. Certainly more complex than deadlift, but far easier than many other movements in athletics.
They are also a lot of fun.
 
Marlon Leon said:
@Oscar: I would say it differently. The full lifts are perhaps not very useful for most athletes.
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Olympic Lifts For Sports

Marlon makes a good point, learning the Competition Olmpic Lifts are "not very useful for most athletes."

However, for those interested one of the best training videos is...

Explosive Power For Sports


This tutorial does a nice job of breaking it down.

...a power snatch from the hang is hard to beat in terms of power development and really not difficult to learn.
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Power Snatch

Another good point. Ir reinforces my what I stated about the value of the Snatch in Power Output development.

Since the "Second Pull" produces that greatest amount of Power Output, Hang Snatches are one of the mest effective method of developing Power.

If the shoulders are a problem, high pulls are excellent as well.
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Hi Pulls

I am a huge proponent of Hi Pulls. As per Dr Greg Haff (former Olympic Lifter), Hi Pulls can be preformed with up to 120% of you best 1 Repetition Clean or Snatch. Thus, a greater overload is obtain which increases Power Output development

Two good articles with demonstration videos are...

1) The Clean High Pull | T Nation

2) High-Pull for the Power Look | T Nation

Cluster Sets

Power is best developed with Cluster Sets; short rest periods of between 15 to 40 seconds taken between each Repetition or between 2 - 3 Repetitions.

Doing so, allows for greater Power Output and Development.

That being said if you spent a few months with a coach the full lifts are very accessible.[/QUOTE]

Working With A Coach

Finding a good Olympic Lifting Coach is challenging.

One of the largest groups utilize and teach Olympic Lifts is Cross Fit. Unfortunately, they are one of the most uneducated.

Usually, individual that have obtained a USA Weightlifting Coach Certification are more knowledgeable.

Picking a coach amount to hiring an employee to work for you. You want to interview them and ask for references.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Another beat up masters lifter here. I love the lifts. Stepped on the competition platform once and had a blast. Currently taking a break from competing for numerous reasons.

I think I've made every mistake that can be made in learning and doing the lifts, and probably made some mistakes that no one thought was possible.

I've become a student of the lifts. Even though I worked with a coach, a coach will not always see all of the mistakes.

If all you want to do is something that looks like a "power clean" you can probably teach yourself passable technique and then combine the "passable" technique with muscling up the weight to get some type of training effect. If you want to be good at the lifts, that's where it gets technical and that's where you need to study technique. "Passable" technique means doing it in such a way where you won't hurt yourself and have a chance at actually making the lift. "Passable" technique for a "power clean" is deadlift the bar to just above the knees and "jump." But this is pure crap for anyone who wants to be good. Good technique ain't nothing like that. There's no "jumping" involved in good technique and the first pull is different from "just a deadlift to above the knees." Trust me on this.

I would agree that unless you want to learn the lifts, using heavy KB swings is sufficient for developing power. Work up to using doubles, or use a T-handle, aka Hungarian Core Blaster, load it heavy and swing away.

I could write pages about Olympic lifting, but what everyone else has said is spot on. If you want to be an Olympic lifter, even an amateur masters lifter, it will take some dedication and commitment, just like anything else that requires technique.
 
I agree that the kettlebell swing is an excellent choice for power training. But I don't like the weight restriction and the financial aspect. A barbell can easily be incrementally loaded up to far heavier than I could want. The heaviest kettlebell I have is 40kg. At the moment that is a good weight for most of my kettlebell practice. I'd hate to have to buy more and bigger kettlebells. The availability is awful and the cost of the matter would become even worse very fast.
 
@Antti Sorinex sells a plate-loaded Hungarian Core Blaster for $129, and that's way too expensive. Some years back I bought a T-Handle on ebay from a guy who fabricated it himself for about $50. You can also make one. These can be loaded with Olympic plates up to 200 lbs., probably more.

Alternatively, I would recommend learning the high pull with a barbell. If you've learned how to correctly do a swing using a hip hinge, that skill is transferable to an Olympic pull. IMO, an Olympic pull has more in common with the swing that with a "jump," even though the "jump" cue is one that is commonly used in teaching the lifts. The difference is that with a swing you project the implement forward, but with an Olympic pull you want the force to be more vertical. Think of the Olympic pull as a swing with a vertical torso - if that even makes sense.
 
MikeTheBear said:
@Antti Sorinex sells a plate-loaded Hungarian Core Blaster for $129, and that's way too expensive. Some years back I bought a T-Handle on ebay from a guy who fabricated it himself for about $50. You can also make one. These can be loaded with Olympic plates up to 200 lbs., probably more.

Alternatively, I would recommend learning the high pull with a barbell. If you've learned how to correctly do a swing using a hip hinge, that skill is transferable to an Olympic pull. IMO, an Olympic pull has more in common with the swing that with a "jump," even though the "jump" cue is one that is commonly used in teaching the lifts. The difference is that with a swing you project the implement forward, but with an Olympic pull you want the force to be more vertical. Think of the Olympic pull as a swing with a vertical torso - if that even makes sense.
Click to expand...

I have read about the HCB earlier on. It is an interesting device and it should be cheap done DIY. I think I may build one in the future.

I like the high pull idea. That is what I will likely try first.
 
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