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Kettlebell Swings/snatches vs. C2 rower

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Darren Best

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I keep reading about how great of a training tool the C2 rower is.

So I'm curious as to what people that have used it and done extensive kettlebell swings and snatches think of it.

Do you think one or the other offers a superior training effect?

Similar or different?

Do you notice any difference good or bad in overall cardio response, aerobic, glycolytic and anaerobic?
 
I've been rowing once a week since reading Cardio Code. The Boys in the Boat had a lot to do with it, too. ;) When I row, I use a heart rate monitor and try to stay under 75-80% of my max heart rate (which I found by doing an all out 2k row test - terrible experience). I find it very easy to regulate that.

The closet snatching experience I've had is the Viking Warrior protocol, which tends not to spike me, but keeps me steadily high since the snatch sets are so close together. That's the thing. Swinging hard and snatching hard, then resting 30 seconds to a minute tends to spike me. It's more of an interval, as opposed to a steady effort like rowing. However, you can easily do intervals on a rower for a similar effect.

I'm paraphrasing here, perhaps incorrectly. Kenneth writes that working at a moderate heart rate develops concentric hypertrophy of the heart (it increases the heart's volume). Working at a high heart rate develops eccentric cardiac hypertrophy (the thickness of the heart's walls). Kenneth argues that rowing keeps the muscles relaxed, which also promotes concentric hypertrophy, where snatching/swinging/lifting weights fast, promotes eccentric because the muscle contract over and over again, doing something the amount of blood or oxygen the muscle are able to make use of. o_O According to his research, snatching is still effective, just not as effective as rowing.

Someone correct me if I've mis-stated things.
 
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I like rowing a lot, but money is a factor. If you are in a gym with both then congrats, but if you work out at home like me, the 500+ bucks for a C2 are an issues, because you can get the same benefits from running or swimming.

FWIW I can't give you intel about the different training effects of rowing and KBs, but IMO the "movements" (can't find a better word) are quite similar. The way I learned to row is a powerful stroke followed by a little rest ("let the boat float"). The less strokes you need for the same distance (while keeping the same pace) the better. That sounds similar to what we do when we swing.
 
I keep reading about how great of a training tool the C2 rower is.

So I'm curious as to what people that have used it and done extensive kettlebell swings and snatches think of it.

Do you think one or the other offers a superior training effect?

Similar or different?

Do you notice any difference good or bad in overall cardio response, aerobic, glycolytic and anaerobic?
I guess it sort of depends on what your training goals are. I have done a bit of both over the years. Same but different. Like @Kettlebelephant said... If you are investing... Bang for your buck and portability I would give the nod to KB. If you want or need very high end cardio/strength endurance...I might lean towards rowing. It all comes back to what you are training for.
 
There is also this thing called "running"; cost free and extremely effective. The less advanced version is called "walking".

Full disclosure: my psyche prevents me from sitting on any machine, doing steady state work, and going no where.

I've been rowing once a week since reading Cardio Code. The Boys in the Boat had a lot to do with it, too. ;) When I row, I use a heart rate monitor and try to stay under 75-80% of my max heart rate (which I found by doing an all out 2k row test - terrible experience). I find it very easy to regulate that.

The closet snatching experience I've had is the Viking Warrior protocol, which tends not to spike me, but keeps me steadily high since the snatch sets are so close together. That's the thing. Swinging hard and snatching hard, then resting 30 seconds to a minute tends to spike me. It's more of an interval, as opposed to a steady effort like rowing. However, you can easily do intervals on a rower for a similar effect.

I'm paraphrasing here, perhaps incorrectly. Kenneth writes that working at a moderate heart rate develops concentric hypertrophy of the heart (it increases the heart's volume). Working at a high heart rate develops eccentric cardiac hypertrophy (the thickness of the heart's walls). Kenneth argues that rowing keeps the muscles relaxed, which also promotes concentric hypertrophy, where snatching/swinging/lifting weights fast, promotes eccentric because the muscle contract over and over again, doing something the amount of blood or oxygen the muscle are able to make use of. o_O According to his research, snatching is still effective, just not as effective as rowing.

Someone correct me if I've mis-stated things.

What you're omitting, James, is the amount of volume required at mod HR, steady state for LV improvement. I don't know if KJ mentions it in the book, but there is simply no way around the volume. The sample plans at the back of the book include no such volume.
 
I went through a rowing phase and still have my C2.

Great exercise in a lot of ways. However, the sitting and spinal flexion did not agree with me and I have not used it in a long time.
 
I do a lot of hiking and hunting once spring, summer and fall roll around. It's also prohibitive to hit the mountains every day and I have found that one long session a week isn't enough, several shorter durations during the week are also needed.

Running and walking in the winter time is pretty much a no go here, constant freeze and thaw cycles make the roads and sidewalks hazardous at best, add in crazy drivers late for somewhere and it's downright dangerous. I gave up daily winter training a long time ago and simply accept the fact that I need to redo it each spring.

Snatching can be done similar to rowing can it not? One can use a lighter bell, pause at the top instead of the speed reps in Viking Warrior conditioning.

Yes the $900 cost of a C2 rower and the space to put it is prohibitive.

And yes, Kenneth's book is what got me thinking of getting a rower.

So three questions come to mind.

1. How much volume does it take to get the improvement to LV volume?

2. Can snatching be used in some modality to increase the heart wall thickness that KJ talks about?

3. Is #2 above because of the volume of muscles being used in rowing, similar to cross country skiing?
 
1. How much volume does it take to get the improvement to LV volume?

2. Can snatching be used in some modality to increase the heart wall thickness that KJ talks about?

I'm very interested in your first question as well. I'm not after being insanely aerobically fit, but healthy and well-rounded. I think your second question is actually about increasing the heart's volume, not wall thickness. The effect of increased wall thickness and contractile strength is why Kenneth looks down on "lifting weights faster" to get the sweat on.
 
@Darren Best,

For cyclic/continuous aerobic exercise that you can do indoors, I'd consider a NordicTrack cross country ski machine. Not only does it fold up easily and take up much less space than a C2, but I've gotten two different ones off Craigslist for less than $30 each.

There are a number of different models. Look for one with adjustable front elevation (most common is the "Pro" model). I find the adjustment system with the strap that slides up and down the post to be the simplest. There are models (such as the "Acheiver") with a dial on the post to adjust the resistance, which seems more convenient, but they are more delicate and harder to fix, although I have one and it has been reliable for me. Different models have varying types of mechanical speedometer/odometers or electronic monitors, which may or may not work on a secondhand unit (neither of mine have a working monitor). However, I just go by perceived exertion, although I have used a separate HR monitor at various times as well.
 
I like rowing a lot, but money is a factor. If you are in a gym with both then congrats, but if you work out at home like me, the 500+ bucks for a C2 are an issues, because you can get the same benefits from running or swimming.
I recently got a Stamina Air Rower for $299 (including shipping!) and it feels very solid and durable. I have never seen a C2 in person so can't really compare but I suspect it will take 10 years or more before any difference show up. One clue was talking to the Stamina sales and tech people on tele and them telling me all their Air Rowers are basically identical and the price difference between low and high end was just cosmetics and mostly in the electronic meter that tells you speed, distance, "calories burned", etc. I use a Polar meter for heart rate and call it good.

As for running, my knees are so close to "done" I can't and wouldn't even if felt I could since I am trying to milk as many more miles out of them as possible without needing a surgical replacement. Swimming is great if you have easy access to pool but it does nothing for bone health which running does a pretty darn well at. Rowing probably in between on that but much less than running; you really need a bit of a jolt to stimulate bone strengthening.
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread but since it's been brought up I wouldn't mind if someone a lot smarter than me can assuage my fears: I've read Jay's works and to be honest, after every update I get of his I'm always left with this nagging fear that I'm messing up working out with KBs and not doing a lot of steady cardio. Plus, the rowing bit is now his new theme. Before it was just plain old running no? I've always been of the opinion that sitting down and exercising is just sub optimal. You gotta be on your feet and deal with 1G affecting your body. The stuff about the thickening of the heart walls really kinda unnerves me when I read his work. So, is he on to something or is he planting his flag on his own niche?
 
Plus 1 for the Stamina Air Rower. I did a lot of research and for home use a concept 2 seems to be overkill unless you get a good deal on a used one.
 
Plus 1 for the Stamina Air Rower. I did a lot of research and for home use a concept 2 seems to be overkill unless you get a good deal on a used one.

Sure, there are other rowers that may be more economical to buy or may even be "better" in some way, but the C2 has some advantages that go beyond the machine itself. A lot of the value of the C2, is that it's THE standard -- there is a huge base/community of users, training plans, competitions and so forth, and performance can be monitored in a standardized way across units and across different generations of the C2. This also means there is a market for used ones and they hold their value pretty well (a good deal on a used one will be a substantial discount from new, but don't expect to find someone unloading one for next to nothing).

These factors may not or may not be important to you (meaning anyone in the market for a rower), but are worth taking into consideration.
 
According to KJ there are three possible responses to training "cardio".

1. Lifting weights faster results in a thickening of the heart wall and decreases left ventricle volume as a result, because there is no stretching of the heart chamber.

2. Traditional cardio such as running and swimming enlarges the left ventricle by stretching it and as a result makes the heart wall thinner.

3. Using rowing enlarges the left ventricle AND strengthens/thickens the heart wall which counteracts the stretching and you get the same thickeness as before.

These statements leave some unanswered questions and throw out a couple more.

Can one combine a sensible "weight lifting program" and cardio and get the same benefits as rowing?

What about kettlebells? Isn't this lifting weights faster? He seems to be hinting and skirting an issue with his earlier work ala Viking Warrior Conditioning. On one hand he states it's not as good as rowing but on the other he says his earlier research into it was sound.

What I have been using for "indoor cardio" is a 12" box and just do step ups. I think this closely mimics hiking up mountains without actually being in them. But I am only able to hit it roughly 10-20 minutes of this in the morning. Is this enough volume? On Friday or Saturday I do an actual hike in the mountains for 2 to 3 hours.
 
What I have been using for "indoor cardio" is a 12" box and just do step ups. I think this closely mimics hiking up mountains without actually being in them. But I am only able to hit it roughly 10-20 minutes of this in the morning. Is this enough volume? On Friday or Saturday I do an actual hike in the mountains for 2 t
More thread hijacking here but....
I unfortunately live in a flat part of the world. Yet, I train to climb mountains. The humble 12" box step is a great tool. Especially when done in mountain boots and wearing a pack. Typically I try to get at least two sessions a week in the months leading up to a climbing trip. I shoot for 1,000' to 1,200' per session. It's not the same as going up a hill outdoors, but it does the job at zero cost. It is mind-numbing however...
 
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I've done a lot of rowing over the years, and Pavel loves giving me a hard time about it... That said, I find the C2 a tremendous tool. You can use it to warm up, cool down, do long endurance work (1/2 marathons, etc), middle distance punishment (5k, 2k) and short, fast interval work. It's a great and versatile tool. @JamesO mentioned the different types of development of the heart with rowing vs KB ballistics and that is a concern, for sure.

Additionally, I like activities that require determination, and any hard effort that's over :30 in duration takes a special kind of determination. Similar to the 100 snatches for SFG status, I think having the will power to finish a painful 2000m row for time takes a lot. And anyone who has really pushed themselves on a 2k knows this to be true. My personal best was 6:58 and I literally fell off the rower when I finished. I realize that's nowhere near competitive times but at 45 years old (at the time), 5'10" and 175# I was pretty stoked. There are postural issues that the rower can encourage that I agree with Pavel needs constant awareness so you don't get too rounded in the back but it is very easy on the joints, even at the highest of intensities.

In the end, I see the KB ballistics and the rower as apples and oranges. You should be able to produce power and you should be able to hold an appropriate work rate for a decent amount of time. How much power you want to produce and how much time equals "decent" for you is a personal decision and will dictate where you spend the majority of your time. For what it's worth, as I prep for the TSC, I'm using the rower only to warm up.

Enjoy the pain!
 
A rowing machine is the real deal. Yes, it is a "machine" and you get to "sit." But done correctly it can be brutal. "Done correctly" means there is a correct technique to getting optimal results. Seems that most things worth doing have some level of "technique" to learn. I have one because I live in Colorado where exercising outside in the winter can be a challenge, at least during the week. Weekends I go snowshoeing or cross-country skiing as much as possible. But I can't always make it out each weekend and not on week nights. Rowing also gives your body a break from the impact of running. I have a water rower and it was a great purchase.

Can KB snatching duplicate rowing? The movements share similarities. However, in order to get the "cardio" benefits that KJ mentions in Cardio Code, you need to leave your ego at the door. Use a very light KB and snatch for time at an even pace. Some may even need to go lighter than 16 kg. That was what I took away from the Cardio Code.
 
I don't think KJ's criticism of "lifting weights faster" conflicts with his advice in Viking Warrior Conditioning. As I recall, in making the criticism KJ was calling out a specific Website that basically sold programs that were variations of circuit training and said that their way of lifting weights faster resulted in strength and cardio fitness. It is true that VWC is based on "snatching faster," but it is not a cookie cutter circuit training program. It sets out specific parameters for each person as determined by a pre-program test. The reason it works is that the weight used is (or should be) light enough to prevent the increases in blood pressure that cause the negative heart muscle adaptations that happen when using heavy weights. The key is load and pacing.
 
Snatching can be done similar to rowing can it not? One can use a lighter bell, pause at the top instead of the speed reps in Viking Warrior conditioning.

I tried Fedorenko's challenge below with a 16 kg and found it to be very "aerobic." I was able to go all 6 minutes and while I was obviously breathing hard by the end it was not the same as the gasping for air feeling after an all-out set. Fedorenko is right about this being a challenge - if you are used to go fast and all out and then resting the slow 12 rpm pace will initially drive you nuts.

 
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