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Kettlebell Snatch check

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King Cobra Fit

Matt - CSEP-CPT, SFG I, FMS I&II
Hey Everyone,
just prepping for my SFG I and I was hoping for a little feed back on my Snatch. I have been trying to get in to see my local SFG but timing has been tough.
I feel like I need to work on fixation at my lock out.
Thanks very much!
https://youtu.be/VNWtspGUeOY
 
Looking at in on my phone, looks good to me... though I see a little bit of GS-influence there ;)
 
Looking at in on my phone, looks good to me... though I see a little bit of GS-influence there ;)

@King Cobra Fit,
Knowing you have practiced long cycle, I was actually expecting MORE GS influence. To me, the biggest distinction between the GS and hard style snatches (even more so than the corkscrew drop) is that hard style uses a straight hip hinge (more like in the GS "emergency" or "olympic" snatch) instead of the GS pendulum, and you don't use the pendulum in your video.

As far as I'm concerned, a degree of lean back at the beginning of the drop is good form in any style since it keeps you from casting the bell too far out in front and allows you to start absorbing the force of the drop earlier. For hard style I like to see it as more of a straight, planked up inclination instead of a shoulder rotation or lumbar extension. I noticed that Anna does this in a snatch video she posted on the "how fast do we swing" thread.

I agree about the lockout. It looks like you are leaning forward a bit and pushing the head forward instead of really finding vertical.

The other thing I notice is it appears like you could be a little more patient in completing your back swing before initiating your hip drive.
 
Looking again, it was something in the leg movement that I was picking up on, but it's only the first snatch on each side. The rest look like good hardstyle. :)

You might try for a really tight (and deeper) hinge, the rest is just more practice....

I agree with Steve's input above.
 
Looking again, it was something in the leg movement that I was picking up on, but it's only the first snatch on each side. The rest look like good hardstyle. :)

Ha! I looked at the video again and see what you're talking about, especially on the very first rep -- definite pendulum.
 
By GS pendulum are you guys referring to that knee dip for the "launch"?

This is straight from the SFG 1 requirements
"The snatch may be performed with or without a knee dip, however, the knees must be straight at the lockout. "
 
@Anna C,
I looked at that last 5 min test video you posted. It looks very solid. I don't really see anything obvious that doesn't look good. How does it FEEL? Are there any areas that feel off, even if they might look okay? Are there any areas that seem to consistently separate a great rep from one that feels a little off (even if an outside observer might not be able to tell the difference)?

I mentioned above the technique of leaning back against the bell on the drop, which helps keep the center of mass from getting too far in front and enables you to start absorbing the force of the drop earlier. It makes the drop less "floppy" and the catch at the bottom less abrupt (less like dropping a weight tied to a rope and having it free fall until the rope abruptly snaps taught). It's a lot like when you swing a heavy bell and end up inclined backward at the top (inclined, not hyperextended), except in the snatch you start the drop from a static vertical lockout and then have to transition to leaning back on the drop a little more consciously and deliberately.

It looks like you mostly do this pretty effectively, although I did notice that at times when you got fatigued you got caught casting the bell a little too far out in front, with that floppy "slack fall and abrupt stop" kind of drop (most noticeable on your right arm in the last rep or two before you put the bell down for a break near the end).

On another note, have you done much or any continuous or high rep per set training lately? Having spent the summer myself doing 5 reps per set training with aerobic recovery, I think that although this is great training in general, great base training for continuous snatching and obviously has a lot of carry over (as seen in your substantial 5 min test improvement), there is still a gap in specificity there.
 
By GS pendulum are you guys referring to that knee dip for the "launch"?

This is straight from the SFG 1 requirements
"The snatch may be performed with or without a knee dip, however, the knees must be straight at the lockout. "

@GeoffreyLevens,
You are referring to two different things.
The GS pendulum is straightening the legs/raising the hips at the end of the back swing and then rebending the knees on the up swing. It's a softer, more fluid and efficient style conducive to doing more continuous reps, as opposed to the hard style emphasis on generating power. IIRC, rebending the knees (forward knee movement) on the up swing is a fault in the SFG technique tests (I know it was in the RKC standards when Pavel was still there).

The quote from the requirements refers to catching the bell in the lockout. You may use a knee dip to drop under the bell and catch it at a lower point, as in a jerk, or just snatch it straight up to the lockout and catch it in a fully extended position. This quotation also refers to the snatch test rather than the technique testing standards. IIRC from my experience with the RKC under Pavel, a little more leeway in technique was allowed in the snatch test than in the technique tests, although candidates were encouraged to stick to hard style, rather than using more full on GS technique.
 
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I looked at that last 5 min test video you posted. It looks very solid. I don't really see anything obvious that doesn't look good. How does it FEEL? Are there any areas that feel off, even if they might look okay? Are there any areas that seem to consistently separate a great rep from one that feels a little off (even if an outside observer might not be able to tell the difference)?

I mentioned above the technique of leaning back against the bell on the drop, which helps keep the center of mass from getting too far in front and enables you to start absorbing the force of the drop earlier. It makes the drop less "floppy" and the catch at the bottom less abrupt (less like dropping a weight tied to a rope and having it free fall until the rope abruptly snaps taught). It's a lot like when you swing a heavy bell and end up inclined backward at the top (inclined, not hyperextended), except in the snatch you start the drop from a static vertical lockout and then have to transition to leaning back on the drop a little more consciously and deliberately.

It looks like you mostly do this pretty effectively, although I did notice that at times when you got fatigued you got caught casting the bell a little too far out in front, with that floppy "slack fall and abrupt stop" kind of drop (most noticeable on your right arm in the last rep or two before you put the bell down for a break near the end).

On another note, have you done much or any continuous or high rep per set training lately? Having spent the summer myself doing 5 reps per set training with aerobic recovery, I think that although this is great training in general, great base training for continuous snatching and obviously has a lot of carry over (as seen in your substantial 5 min test improvement), there is still a gap in specificity there.

Steve, thanks for your comments, I appreciate the input! And I'm sure Matt knows from our experience in A+A swings, we learn from each other, so it's all relevant to him as well.

They felt good, except those few before the break that you mentioned. Consistency has greatly improved, as has grip skill, arm endurance, launch efficiency, vertical lockout (you may recall that I had a problem with that at the TSC in April on the right side -- it is now resolved) and recovery (noticed I was quite refreshed after the one break, relative to just before it). Interestingly, my technique has changed very little, despite me actually trying to change it in several ways throughout this protocol, such as the vertical drop and leaning back a bit more. I am not sure if I'm just not able to force a change, or if my body just knows that this is the most efficient for me. Regardless, I am still trying to get a bit more of that.

As for the continuous or high rep training -- No, I have done none of this except for a couple of tests in July since the April TSC. It's all been A+A, small sets with plenty of recovery. So I agree, a little bit of this added in (the icing on the cake!) will probably boost my 5-min snatch performance a bit more.
 
Thanks so much for the feedback @Anna C and @Steve W.
I was rushing my snatches in the video because I wasn't sure how much memory I had on my phone haha.
I will work on letting the bell complete its back swing before bringing it back forward. I'm also going to work on my lockout.

One additional question I have is with breathing. I know I've read about doubling the breath with the snatch as you get tired. I'm not sure if you know but breathing for GS is backwards to our breathing here (big exhale at the bottom and big exhale at the top) but when I start to get out of breath and try practicing "double breathing" it starts to get more on the lines of the GS style of breathing.
The way i've been practicing is "out and quick in, at the top and out and quick in at the bottom. does that sound about right?

thanks again everyone. The info and support from these forums and this community is unreal.
 
If you're still looking for some constructive criticism, it seems to me as though the KB isn't "invading your personal space" very much at all on your left side (right seems dialed in as far as I can tell), both on the snatch and the drop--that is, it seems a bit straight/dead-armed. Try to visualize that you're standing only a foot or two in front of a wall, and you have to keep the kettlebell in close on the both the trip up and on the way down again so that it doesn't strike (this cue is too dangerous to actually put to use, so we have to just pretend on this one).

Also, those sneakers appear just a bit too cushy for this kind of work. I'd recommend going barefoot or at least down to socks, if you're stuck training in a PC gym. If even stocking feet is too radical for the staff, treat yourself to some Chucks or something similar.
 
One additional question I have is with breathing. I know I've read about doubling the breath with the snatch as you get tired. I'm not sure if you know but breathing for GS is backwards to our breathing here (big exhale at the bottom and big exhale at the top) but when I start to get out of breath and try practicing "double breathing" it starts to get more on the lines of the GS style of breathing.
The way i've been practicing is "out and quick in, at the top and out and quick in at the bottom. does that sound about right?

I'll give you my take on snatch breathing, but anyone feel free to correct me if you disagree... some of this is just my own opinion.
  • Biomechanical breathing match is required for hardstyle. Inhale on the downswing (thought the nose is preferred), exhale on the upswing.
  • Power breath on the upswing is helpful and often advised. This would be a "Tssss" to "Tsssaaaahh" exhale on the hip snap, NOT on the last part on the arm raise like you might do on a press. But, this is not required, and many people breath out more towards to top, or even at the top in lockout. (We discussed this a bit in the A+A forum and kind of concluded that if you have the required torso strength, the power breath is somewhat incidental. In general, however, the power breath helps at the most challenging part of the lift, for just about any lift.)
  • As you get started, one breath per snatch is probably adequate. Some people can maintain this throughout a long effort.
  • If one breath per snatch is not enough (for me this comes maybe 30 snatches into a continuous effort), two breaths per snatch works well. Inhale on the downswing, exhale with power breath on the upswing, then in lockout, a quick inhale-exhale.
  • There may also be a mid-point where you need more than one breath per snatch but less than two per snatch. I think it's OK to let the breathing decouple from the snatch cadence for a few reps if needed. I did this in my last 5-min effort/video.
I'd be very interested in anyone else's input on snatch breathing, on these or other aspects.....
 
Ok great thanks @J Petersen I'll work on the proximity of the bell to my body. I'm sure this is one of the GS techniques carrying over. As for my shoes, they are actually just as "chucky" as chucks, I was actually going to try and pick up a new pair. they are Helly Hansen and I've found i get just as much feed back from the ground as chucks but that they have held up a little better than chucks (however i'll only buy them if they are in the clearance section as they are quite pricy haha)

@Anna C thanks for your take. maybe in the next week or so, once I've practiced a bit I'll take another video and make sure I'm close enough to hear my breathing (during my GS LC sets all you could hear was my breathing haha)
I would also be interested in hearing more on others takes on "fatigued breathing" during a continuous snatch set.
 
The idea, as I think of it, is:

Load your hips like you'd pull back on a bow and arrow. Getting the bell overhead will become almost like letting go of the bow. Put the work into the backswing, specifically into loading your hips and not just your hamstrings, and the bell will coast into the lockout position for you.

-S-
 
@King Cobra Fit,
IMO, there is a lot of room for variation in the proximity of the bell to the body. A really tight, more vertical path like a barbell snatch works for some, but isn't necessarily the best for everyone. Experiment to find the most comfortable and powerful groove for you, as there are advantages and disadvantages to both a straighter line and a fuller arc. The bell path is just one piece of your overall technique, but it will affect the balance and timing of other pieces, so you have to find the overall recipe where all the pieces come together the best for you.
 
No GS there.

For those asking about the "GS pendulum" here is a really good example of GS snatch technique. Full disclaimer: this is a video of Ksenia Dedyukhina who happens to be a young and attractive Russian girl. The video shows her technique from many angles including from behind. No, I am not trying to be a creepy middle-aged guy. I just think she has excellent technique. She can crank out reps with the 24 kg and she is by no means "overly muscular."

 
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