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Kettlebell Question about swings making you soft

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Strong Rick

Strong Rick

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hello all,
I was reading something from Geoff neuport the other day and in it there was a mention that the "same workout" (I.e. Swings and getups) done over and over for a long time would eventually stop being effective....

This is copied and pasted from that article

"For example: 100 swings a day - as minimalistic and appealing as it seems to some, will, over the long haul, fail to produce results. (I've advocated using this very simple program repeatedly to many people over the last 5-7 years for getting them up and running. It's highly effective for the short term - which is exactly what many people need to build generate momentum and build consistency.)"

Could you please explain this rational to me.

He then goes on and expands....

"This law simply states that the response of an organism to a specific stimulus decreases over time until it's no longer a stimulus - it's part of homeostasis - or equilibrium.

It's why runners who run the same distance year after year after year actually get fatter.

"So you have to overcome this by either waving the load (which I've written about extensively in the past) - near random increases and decreases in your sets, reps, and weight, or by using "specialized variety" - which is "same but different" exercises."

How is simple and sinister different from this type of thinking?
Should we be waving the load for simple and sinister?
Are we "spinning wheels" or "inching along" doing the sample training day in and day out?

You guys know way more about this stuff than I do so please educate me.

I'm sure I am just misunderstanding something because why would Pavel put something like that out.... what is also confusing is that Geoff was a high ranking person for many years under Pavel and pays him high compliments still to this day, why would recommend doing simple and sinister for only a couple weeks and then go on to something else?

There are people working on achieving simple for months doing the same training day in and day out when they could possibly reach that goal sooner if they wave the load or change it up and go back to simple for another session.

Or is it because we raise the load when we "pass" the time standard that doesn't make it the same training day in and day out as it is referred to in the article

Please explain to me what I am missing

Thanks in advance!
 
Well, you're never doing the same thing. Your goal is to increase the weight of the bell and decrease rest periods between swing sets. If you did the exact, or roughly the exact, session day after day, then you no longer have a changing stimulus.
 
I don't see where he says swings make anyone soft- that's runners who do same runs all the time, and maybe only a few of them who eat & drink way too much get fat, from my experience. They don't run long after that, trust me. As Mach Won says, you're developing to higher weights, and shorter time frames, and, you're also getting crisper and more 'hardstyle' as you make progress. Swings keep getting better and better if you pay attention to form. So you're not doing the same thing over and over. When you get to Simple standard, many here do recommend doing something else for awhile, like ROP.

Also, you have to keep in mind that Geoff designs and sells more expensive and advanced programs- so factor that in. From what people say, they're very good programs, but they're probably more for advanced folks than beginners. He's also good at marketing, so that may be a factor as well. Nothing wrong with that!
If you do S&S and stall out, just ask for advice.
 
Strong Rick said:
"For example: 100 swings a day - as minimalistic and appealing as it seems to some, will, over the long haul, fail to produce results"

....

"...It's why runners who run the same distance year after year after year actually get fatter.
!
Click to expand...

I think between the above quote and his comments on homeostasis it's pretty clear that he's saying you can't do 100 swings a day at the same weight and in the same way (i.e. repeating the exact same workout) and expect to make progress.

S&S doesn't do that. With S&S you are building first the volume of your training (when you're at the stage where you can't complete all prescribed reps at a given weight), then building the density of your training (as rest periods compress), then you are moving to a new heavier weight and repeating the process for a number of weeks/months.

That is by definition breaking homeostasis and forcing an adaptive response.
 
El Cid said:
I think between the above quote and his comments on homeostasis it's pretty clear that he's saying you can't do 100 swings a day at the same weight and in the same way (i.e. repeating the exact same workout) and expect to make progress.

S&S doesn't do that. With S&S you are building first the volume of your training (when you're at the stage where you can't complete all prescribed reps at a given weight), then building the density of your training (as rest periods compress), then you are moving to a new heavier weight and repeating the process for a number of weeks/months.

That is by definition breaking homeostasis and forcing an adaptive response.
Click to expand...

I didn't know what to think after reading that and that is why asked the group to educate me

Because S+S has us always compressing our time and when we pass the the time standard we up the bell which basically changes the training or "near random" changes which stimulates our system and forces to grow and get stronger....
 
Strong Rick said:
I didn't know what to think after reading that and that is why asked the group to educate me

Because S+S has us always compressing our time and when we pass the the time standard we up the bell which basically changes the training or "near random" changes which stimulates our system and forces to grow and get stronger....
Click to expand...

Yeah I can see where that quote might give you pause. That was just my best interpretation of what G.N. was trying to communicate based on the context provided. I'm no mind reader, but that's the best sense of it I could make :)
 
Strong Rick, Pavel knows all of this very well, and El Cid's answer speaks to the easy and almost "invisible" way Pavel added random variation into the S&S program.

If you want to learn more about programming ideas, I'd take a look at Pavel's Beyond Bodybuilding, a large source of quality programs with great explanations of why they work better than the normal fare.
 
It all comes down to the level of intensity of your baseline exercise.

Benefits will diminish somewhat over time, but I highly doubt 100 swings with a 28 or 32 kg bell will wind up doing nothing.

For a couple of years I mainly jumped rope with a heavy jump rope for my fitness regimen, 15 minutes forward, 10 back, the first five minutes with wrist and ankle weights. It never got easy. I never stopped looking pretty ripped and feeling good about it.

Variety is better, challenging is challenging, even if it is repetitive.
 
Exactly what everybody else just said.

S&S is not about the same stimolous over and over again. There are a lot of ways to tackle it that makes it "evolve" over time, and always change the stimolous to which the body has to respond.
You can start with low reps every 30" and work up to 10, you can start with 10 repetetitions in 1'30" and compress time. After that, you have to increase the load: adding one rep every set, one set every workout, jumping strainght to next weight and treat it like a new start.
Also, understand that it takes a fair bit of time to reach the point where the body has been stimulated so much in the same manner that it stops completely to respond to that stress. Of course, as anything else in training and health, this time varies from an individual to another: it may take a month for me and a year for you or vice versa, for example

As long as you take the right amount of time to adapt and then increase volume or density, You are producing an effect on your body, which is different to what Geoff Neupert rightly says the quote your produced. The visibility of this effect is a whole different matter and has to do with lots of factor, most of which I now just by name and that I don't feel are relevant to this thread anyways.

EDIT: as @North Coast Miller says, it is true that the same movement performed over time, indipendently of volume and density, will eventually get to the point of diminishing returns.
 
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There's also nothing wrong with using a lighter weight when you aren't feeling 100% - that will be some variety. It's also good to mix the kind of swings you do, and I do this, throwing in some two-handed swings with a heavier weight, or some H2H, or varying the volume. In fact, there is a blog about adding some variety to S&S - anyone care to post the link?

-S-
 
If someone wants to do S&S for a pong time, then do it. As written. When they stop getting good results, in a year or five, then maybe they should do something else. Theory is fun, but practice is what matters.
 
I thought long and hard about this last night and came up with this answer.

I ditched the gym boss timer with the thought that my breath and or my "feeling ready" for my next set would be the driving factor.

I figured that it doesn't get any more random then that.
Some days I feel strong and go fast
Some days I feel tired and go slow
Some days I will feel strong but want to work at a slower pace
Some days I will be pressed for time and have to work at a quicker pace....
and then any number of reasons following

Thanks for helping me sort this out guys.
As I mentioned before guys, this really threw me for a loop when I read it.
 
If you were to perform 100 swings a day with the same size KB in the same exact manner - reps, rest etc.... then you can/may get "stalled" out in your training but that's now how the program is written.
Progress, work the variables (rotating volume and intensity), and switch routines periodically (ETK, RTK, S&S etc...) lots of options
 
I'll be at the Sinister level fairly soon. I'll probably maintain it so I don't lose it, but add some things onto it like 48kg C&P, NW GTG stuff etc.

The major selling point of S&S to me is that I can do a reliable daily thing to get and keep me in good physical condition and shape. This is also why while I love the moves in ROP, I don't like the programme as much as it's trickier to manage with rolling dice and all, and light days and heavy days and variety days. I want something to do daily that is reliable.
 
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MattM said:
Huh?

Wasn't it a few weeks ago that you were too injured to swing your 32 one handed?
Click to expand...
I recovered and I'm onto the 40 now. I recorded myself doing some of the moves here (with horrible music):

The 40 is getting pretty close to the 48. Half your bodyweight isn't anything too horrible to lift, it's just about training up for it over time.
 
S&S is more advanced than what it first appears. Because of the opposing movements, introduction of new weights, and the "by feel" nature of it, it draws from linear, undulating, and conjugate periodization principles. I have recently had some clarity, which may help, on periodization in this thread. It definitely has enough variability to maintain progress for a very long time.

Worst case, if you stall, try it in a different fashion like a circuit alternating between the swings and getups. Or, increase the volume at lower weight in a style more like Dan Johns 10,000 swings program using the TGU as the strength move.
 
My religion has been S&S for the past 10 months. I honestly feel very close to attaining "Sinister" whereas I though that doing the routine with the 24 was impossible back in January!

I haven't gotten "soft" at all! I've developed into more of a bullog than the weight I lift!
 
@kodo kb I like how you put it, the variation was invisible. The mark of an elegantly simple program. It is so simple it is actually very complex. As evidenced by how many years and threads we have spent discussing it...

As others have mentioned, doing the same exact thing will most likely cause you to stall out. But is it really the same? I think this is more of a "same but different" issue, where the variations are subtle. As Pavel describes on page 78-79 of the book, the simpler and less intense the program, the less variation is needed. And as in the concept of fatigue cycling, even very minor changes can coax the body into continued progression.

Desk Jockey Daddy Periodization

This article, as well as Naked Warrior references letting the randomness of your everyday life dictate the variation of your training. These involves actually waving the load and volume based on what is going on in your life at the time, something the original Simple and Sinister program does not do. However here is another "invisible" variation that the randomness of life provides....

Your ability and level of fatigue will fluctuate from day to day. I know in my own routines I have built for myself based on the alactic-aerobic concept the variables have changed significantly from session to session all on their own despite the constraints/rules/routine remaining the same.

This is the concept of RPE. The way the exact same weight/effort feels will change throughout the week depending on so many variables in your life, some seen and some unseen. The same load and lift may feel like a moderate 75%% effort one day and a decently challenging 85% effort later in the week. Over-reaching and accumulation naturally occurs, then a deload naturally occurs. Despite the random daily and weekly fluctuations, over time what hovered around an 80% effort may begin to feel more like a 60% effort...time to up the weight! To quote Dan John, "In effect, the load has been waved by not waving it at all—no calculating percentages, none of that hooey. You just get strong instead..."
 
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