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Other/Mixed Decrease the "burn" in the muscles

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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305pelusa

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Hello,
I have a general question on strength training and was hoping for some insight. Searching for an answer is rather rough.

Anyways, say I can do 50 push-ups in a row. By the time I reach 30 push-ups, my shoulders begin to burn (lactic acid), and they're burning very hard by rep 50 after which I can't do another rep (too tired).

1) If I begin to train with push-ups regularly, then naturally my max will increase. Say after 3 weeks, I am capable of 70 push-ups in a row. Does that mean that my shoulders will burn just as much since rep 30 as before, or will there be less lactic acid build-up because I am stronger and capable of more reps?

I can only imagine that they would burn later on (say, rep 50). The stronger you are (strength-endurance if you want to be technical I mean), the less acid built up earlier on. That's why I can hold the top of a push-up for many minutes without much burn, but my shoulder will be on fire after 30 secs of the top of a One-arm push-up. Is this correct?

2) Assuming the above is right, then if I have a target goal of reps, or hold time for an exercise, then I need to get stronger so that I can both reach it, and also not burn so much since earlier in the set. My question then is, how do you train (sets, reps, volume) in order to improve your strength endurance, and hence, prevent lactic acid build up earlier in the set?

To be more specific, I have a goal of 5 sets of 60 secs Handstand holds. Currently capable of 5 x 40 secs, but with a monumental mental effort to fight through the pain (first set, little acid... by the last set, it begins to burn hard since the first 10 secs!). To reach 5 x 60 s, I just need to get a bit stronger and hence, I won't be burning so much.

With that in mind, how would I program my Handstands? Should I be doing long sets, and slowly build up to 5 x 60 s, fighting through the burn? Or should I stop my sets earlier? I guess in my mind, I'm scared that if I'm training to the point of a huge burn, then the next time I try, it will get worse hahaha.

Posting this in the KB forum since I think it's a general question, and probably has some overlap with a long TGU rep.

Thanks
 
Ooh, great questions. I don't know the answers, but I'll throw in some things I "think"...
  • The burn is actually from acidity (H+) not lactic acid
  • As you build strength and endurance, slower twitch fibers are doing more work, and these produce less lactate and H+ than fast twitch fibers (so, yes, the stronger you get, the more "slower" fibers can do the work, as with your example holding at the top of the push-up)
  • Through your training you probably develop better bloodflow in the muscles too, helping to buffer the acidity and helping to shuttle things around
  • Probably want to avoid the burn most of the time, because if I understand some of Pavel's writing, this is harmful to the mitochondria. "If you let the “burn” in the muscle rise too high, you literally destroy the mitochondria, the very thing you tried to build." “Long Rests”: A Revolution in Interval Training
So here's something I've been paying attention to, and this may be my own wacky theory... but I find that in yoga when holding a warrior pose or something else that appears to be motionless, I actually slightly shift the working muscles to avoid the burn and let the blood keep flowing. I think the same thing can be done with push-ups to some degree. Would you agree with that?

Looking forward to others thoughts on your very interesting query...
 
  • Probably want to avoid the burn most of the time, because if I understand some of Pavel's writing, this is harmful to the mitochondria. "If you let the “burn” in the muscle rise too high, you literally destroy the mitochondria, the very thing you tried to build." “Long Rests”: A Revolution in Interval Training
I'm a bit confused. That's referring to conditioning because if you do rigorous, continuous activity, you'll develop an oxygen debt (anaerobic). Your muscles look for another source of energy (glucose), and that inevitably leads to lactic acid as a by-product. Is this about right?

I guess my question is more about strength-endurance exercises, not necessarily conditioning. As in, I don't have an oxygen debt (or it's very small). In that context, is that article still applicable? The article also seems to delve into the world of extremes. I'm not a HIT junkie, I don't end up on the floor "sucking wind" after my Handstands, and a minute Handstand doesn't feel like I'm going "all-out" for a minute anyways.

I mean, Pavel is talks about Prof. Selouyanov, but doesn't seem to give any references. Maybe the Prof. was saying high levels of acidity coupled with frequent all-out sessions chasing the burn would destroy the mitochondria, but not if done for a few sets? I just don't know the context in which that Prof. says that.

I guess I'm just confused. So maybe it's better to do HS sets up to slight burning, then get down and rest more? And this will help me achieve 60 secs faster than simply pushing to near-failure?

I guess in the context of strength-endurance, I always thought it was good to push the numbers high and work to almost failure.
 
Hello,

@305pelusa
Did you try some "EMOM" protocol (Each Minute On the Minute).
You set up a timer a decide from a number of reps (with good form) to do each minute. The remaining time is rest.
For instance, you say "15 pull ups per minute", during 10 minutes. You manage doing the PU as you want during the minute.

Another option: increasing density :
You set a timer on 5 / 10 / 15 minutes or so. And you do as many moves (eg pull ups) with good form as you can. Then you write down this number. The next session, for the same time frame, you try to do more reps. If you did more reps, it means you pull more weight in the same time, so you get both stronger and with a better conditioning.

It is very "crossfit inspired", but I hope it can help you a little.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I'm a bit confused. That's referring to conditioning because if you do rigorous, continuous activity, you'll develop an oxygen debt (anaerobic). Your muscles look for another source of energy (glucose), and that inevitably leads to lactic acid as a by-product. Is this about right?

I wouldn't say that it's the oxygen debt that makes your muscles look for glucose as an energy source. Maybe more like this: If you do rigorous, continuous activity, your muscles will need glycolysis for fuel (ATP) and which produces lactate and H+ which can build up and contribute to fatigue. Incidentally, the amount of lactate is relative to the amount of pyruvate that can't be utilized by your aerobic system. Have you ever tried a 10-15 minute easy aerobic warm-up prior to doing the push-ups or handstand holds? I wonder if this would make a difference...I think it might help. I also believe that an improvement in aerobic base (for example, LSD running at MAF HR) leads to an increased ability to do strength-endurance exercises. For example, I increased my SSST (10 min snatch w/ 16kg) from 197 to 211 over the last few months with the main difference in my training being a lot of aerobic base work. I actually did less snatching overall in the 2 months prior to the 211 than I did prior to the 197.

I guess my question is more about strength-endurance exercises, not necessarily conditioning.

I would say there's not that much difference between a set of 70 push-ups or 5 x 60 sec handstand holds, and a 5-min session of 100 snatches, at least in the strength endurance aspect. So I think a lot of the article still applies.

So maybe it's better to do HS sets up to slight burning, then get down and rest more? And this will help me achieve 60 secs faster than simply pushing to near-failure?

That would be my guess, but I'm really not an expert in how to increase this ability. @pet''s suggestions look good too.
 
@aciampa?

@Anna C?

Beuhler?

Moving thread to Training -> Other.

-S-

"Bueller".

I'm a bit confused. That's referring to conditioning because if you do rigorous, continuous activity, you'll develop an oxygen debt (anaerobic). Your muscles look for another source of energy (glucose), and that inevitably leads to lactic acid as a by-product. Is this about right?

Not quite. You are in local oxygen debt, which is why you feel your shoulders burning. But you don't need to understand this to move forward.

I would ask how you worked up to 5 x 40sec, and has it stopped working, or are you getting impatient? What about body weight? Are you as lean as possible?

IMO, you will need to chase the burn for some, if not most of the time for this specific goal. Longer sets. Also, look at your hand placement for leveraging improvements there. Lastly, are you strong in overhead lifts? Improving your overhead press will help here too.
 
Hello,

I also believe that an improvement in aerobic base (for example, LSD running at MAF HR) leads to an increased ability to do strength-endurance exercises
easy pace jumping rope (on a MAF HR) are a very good way to warm up (no more than 10 minutes because JR can be taxing).

I also noticed that I am better at my weighted chin ups after my heavy swings (doing anti glyco) than before.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Assuming the above is right, then if I have a target goal of reps, or hold time for an exercise, then I need to get stronger so that I can both reach it, and also not burn so much since earlier in the set. My question then is, how do you train (sets, reps, volume) in order to improve your strength endurance, and hence, prevent lactic acid build up earlier in the set?

To be more specific, I have a goal of 5 sets of 60 secs Handstand holds. Currently capable of 5 x 40 secs, but with a monumental mental effort to fight through the pain (first set, little acid... by the last set, it begins to burn hard since the first 10 secs!). To reach 5 x 60 s, I just need to get a bit stronger and hence, I won't be burning so much.

With that in mind, how would I program my Handstands? Should I be doing long sets, and slowly build up to 5 x 60 s, fighting through the burn? Or should I stop my sets earlier? I guess in my mind, I'm scared that if I'm training to the point of a huge burn, then the next time I try, it will get worse hahaha.
We have a large body of evidence about effective training for strength/endurance in preparation for our kettlebell snatch test, but that's different than your static hold in some important ways, I think, e.g., the snatch test has you moving a lot and alternating between an explosive movement and relative rest. @Anna C's idea of moving a little during your static holds has merit, IMHO.

You don't mention rest periods between each effort of your 5 x 60 - what do you have in mind? I'm sure you know this already, but doing them with :30 seconds rest between will be quite different than doing them with 30 minutes rest between and there are a whole host of options between those two points.

It's also worth reminding ourselves of something we've mentioned from time to time on the forum and in our blogs - high performance often comes at a cost. Why this goal? What are you willing to sacrifice for it? Is this a standard you wish to achieve and then maintain, or are you willing to peak for this then back off?

Maybe you need to find an auxiliary exercise to add to your training to add specific strength that will help you with this endeavor, e.g., perhaps if your 1-arm kettlebell military press goes up, your midsection stability improves and that makes these easier? Or the getup? Or the 1-arm swing? Or the barbell military press, or the 2-arm kettlebell military press - the latter might have a lot of carryover for you.

Just some thoughts for you - I'd start by asking if you're willing to use 5 minute rests between attempts and recommending that.

-S-
 
Hello,

@305pelusa
I am not an expert in neither strength nor conditioning. However, I can guarantee you that some daily swings "S&S" style will help you to progress in terms of strength and endurance. You will reap tons of benefits from them IMO.

I do not want to sacrifice conditioning. When I first discovered swings, I was doubtful about them. How a single exercise can give me power, strength and endurance. Then I tried and it worked.

Frankly, if it works for someone like me, it will work for you too !

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@pet' : I actually do my Handstands that way. A set on the minute, every two minutes. It comes out to a bit less rest than 1:2. This is what makes it difficult as well since I'm very pumped and unrecovered for the next set. I fit this in a 10 minute window that I dedicate almost daily to Handstand work.
For example, I increased my SSST (10 min snatch w/ 16kg) from 197 to 211 over the last few months with the main difference in my training being a lot of aerobic base work. I actually did less snatching overall in the 2 months prior to the 211 than I did prior to the 197.

Ok, I have never done an SSST or snatched but in general, I was under the impression that the reason the SSST is hard is because it's so hard on your conditioning. Like you literally gasp for breath and can't keep going. The reason for not getting X reps isn't that your hips are too tired to literally snatch another rep. Rather, it's your lungs that just can't do it.

Isn't this fundamentally different than high rep push-ups? Yeah you might be a bit winded, but the issue isn't that I need to stop and breathe because I'm deconditioned. Rather, my muscles literally can't squeeze another rep. They're too tired.

With that in mind, couldn't one argue that a better aerobic base would definitely improve your SSST, even if you don't snatch that much (because the issue is conditioning, not strength-endurance), but it would do little for your max push-ups, or HS holds?

I don't want to seem like I'm not trying to understand. I'm just a bit confused because they just seem different in my mind hehe.



@aciampa :I used to do 8-10 sets of as long as I could hold. As I got better holding it, I cut the sets and slowly upped the hold length.

It does seem to be slowly working. The reason why I ask is that the reason I couldn't hold as long before was simply not being as good at balancing. I could hit 20-30 secs, but then lost balance (so not enough time to start burning). Now that I'm better at them, I could hold for longer, and what holds me back is lack of strength, not balance as much. Does this make sense?

I was concerned that if my training involved more and more training with longer sets, then somehow this would be detrimental because of the lactic acid build-up that seems to get a bad rep here in SF.

I'm as lean as I want to get, and I think I'm decent in overhead pressing.
 
Ok, I have never done an SSST or snatched but in general, I was under the impression that the reason the SSST is hard is because it's so hard on your conditioning. Like you literally gasp for breath and can't keep going. The reason for not getting X reps isn't that your hips are too tired to literally snatch another rep. Rather, it's your lungs that just can't do it.

Isn't this fundamentally different than high rep push-ups? Yeah you might be a bit winded, but the issue isn't that I need to stop and breathe because I'm deconditioned. Rather, my muscles literally can't squeeze another rep. They're too tired.

With that in mind, couldn't one argue that a better aerobic base would definitely improve your SSST, even if you don't snatch that much (because the issue is conditioning, not strength-endurance), but it would do little for your max push-ups, or HS holds?

Well it does depend on the individual and the weight, for sure. As Dan John says, your limiter in a snatch test will be "your guns, your buns, or your lungs", which I interpret as either 1) muscular endurance of your upper body (in which case it would be similar to high-rep push-ups, 2) your hip hinge and leg power (which may also be similar, but less so), or 3) your cardiovascular conditioning (in which case, you're right, it's sort of a different animal). I rarely run into #3 as my limiter, but I know that others do. So in that case it's not a good comparison.

I think aerobic base helps by for allowing you do more work aerobically before anaerobically, and for helping to recover between sets.

Great discussion. I love learning and talking about this stuff. :)
 
We have a large body of evidence about effective training for strength/endurance in preparation for our kettlebell snatch test, but that's different than your static hold in some important ways, I think, e.g., the snatch test has you moving a lot and alternating between an explosive movement and relative rest. @Anna C's idea of moving a little during your static holds has merit, IMHO.

Will try this for sure. I think if I lean onto an arm, I can let the other one rest for a mini second. Easier said than done but worth a shot hehe.

You don't mention rest periods between each effort of your 5 x 60 - what do you have in mind? I'm sure you know this already, but doing them with :30 seconds rest between will be quite different than doing them with 30 minutes rest between and there are a whole host of options between those two points.

The idea is to do it all in 10 minutes. That's essentially HS for a minute, rest a minute and so on until you get 10 min. So 1:1 ultimately.

It's also worth reminding ourselves of something we've mentioned from time to time on the forum and in our blogs - high performance often comes at a cost. Why this goal? What are you willing to sacrifice for it? Is this a standard you wish to achieve and then maintain, or are you willing to peak for this then back off?

Sacrifice? I don't mind sacrificing time, but you're saying somehow building up to this will make other skills in my training worse?

This goal is a basic, minimum goal usually advised by those who know better than me before starting One-arm Handstand work. The HS itself should be so well mastered, that it feels almost effortless. And doing 5 x 60 s with little rest is a good way to get to that point, is my understanding Steve.

And yes, it should be something I could generally maintain. I think OAHS progressions would help maintain it, but I envision still keeping regular HSs to maintain this.

My question is just more about general strength-endurance, but yes, that's the end goal.

Just some thoughts for you - I'd start by asking if you're willing to use 5 minute rests between attempts and recommending that.

-S-

I'm willing to do this, yes. Look, the way I thought of working up to it was always keeping the window at 10 minutes, and slowly doing longer holds in it.

But I have no problem doing it the other way. Doing 5 x 60 secs by resting as needed between sets, and then reducing the rest until I get the 1:1 work/rest ratio. If that works better, definitely willing. Same end goal!
 
Hello,

@305pelusa
I think aerobic base helps by for allowing you do more work aerobically before anaerobically, and for helping to recover between sets
That is true.

I noticed that I recover far faster between high rep sets since I do daily swings. This is true for pull ups and push ups for instance.

Before, I did 5 sets of max reps, with short rests (25s) between sets. Naturally, the rep number decreases.

Then, I added daily swings. It appears that the rep number of the last sets drastically increased, even if I did not increase rest periods. I think the key is reducing rest period sto get more density in the same time frame. To do that, IMO, conditioning is a significant factor.

I really like this thread, full of good information, very positive :)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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Well it does depend on the individual and the weight, for sure. As Dan John says, your limiter in a snatch test will be "your guns, your buns, or your lungs", which I interpret as either 1) muscular endurance of your upper body (in which case it would be similar to high-rep push-ups, 2) your hip hinge and leg power (which may also be similar, but less so), or 3) your cardiovascular conditioning (in which case, you're right, it's sort of a different animal). I rarely run into #3 as my limiter, but I know that others do. So in that case it's not a good comparison.

I think aerobic base helps by for allowing you do more work aerobically before anaerobically, and for helping to recover between sets.

Great discussion. I love learning and talking about this stuff. :)
Oh ok ok. Like I said, I know way too little about snatching and SSST to figure that. But it seems like it can actually just be a strength endurance issue, not necessarily about conditioning. Apologies for the ignorance then.

I have to figure out how to implement this. This is about the only goal that benefits from a better aerobic base that I have, so it might not be the best use of my time. Will ponder heavily. Thanks Anna!
 
This goal is a basic, minimum goal usually advised by those who know better than me before starting One-arm Handstand work. The HS itself should be so well mastered, that it feels almost effortless. And doing 5 x 60 s with little rest is a good way to get to that point, is my understanding Steve.

This is a good thing to know. I've been doing a lot of handstand practice but more for balance than time. Just the other day I wondered, how long can I hold one when against the wall? Turns out, exactly 1 minute. Doing that 4 more times would be much harder and definitely seems like a good goal. And freestanding would be even better!

Looking forward to hearing how things go for you in this endeavor.
 
Does the "time until burn" increase. Good question that I have wondered myself and do not know the answer. I hope so.

guess my question is more about strength-endurance exercises, not necessarily conditioning.
Have you considered the slow twitch articles on the blog? It seems to be more of a localized, movement specific protocol instead of conditioning. It involves going into the burn with complete recovery, mixed with some strength work too.

The effect of max strength improvement on max reps vs. more of an energy systems approach is something I'd like to understand more.

I also believe that an improvement in aerobic base (for example, LSD running at MAF HR) leads to an increased ability to do strength-endurance exercises.

Also something that I've wondered, thank you for sharing your experience!
 
This is a good thing to know. I've been doing a lot of handstand practice but more for balance than time. Just the other day I wondered, how long can I hold one when against the wall? Turns out, exactly 1 minute. Doing that 4 more times would be much harder and definitely seems like a good goal. And freestanding would be even better!

Looking forward to hearing how things go for you in this endeavor.
Oh that's pretty good! Says a female friend of mine who did gymnastics since young. Apparently, some of her training days would be wall HS held for 2 minutes, with 30 secs of rest after. This would then be repeated 2-3 times. She says it was "hard and unpleasant"... hehe.

Have you considered the slow twitch articles on the blog? It seems to be more of a localized, movement specific protocol instead of conditioning. It involves going into the burn with complete recovery, mixed with some strength work too.

I considered it, but have no idea how it applies to static holds. I guess I can find a Pike Push-up variation (HeSPU seems too hard to go that slow and get to 30 secs. Maybe not, idk), but I imagine the ST hypertrophy would also happen in the triceps. And if it does in the shoulders, I don't even know if it would transfer to a HS anyways. I think I was looking for a more tried-and-true approach to it.

Apparently, there's plenty of programs/evidence/training programs to boost your Snatch strength-endurance for the SSST. That might be less guessing than this. Not sure how to get to that info though. Do I need to certify?
 
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