Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

[Stuart Elliott]

Not silly......Yes do simple first.
And yes rest as needed between swing sets, the amount of rest you need will gradually reduce , then you test yourself when ready. Then rinse and repeat with the next bell size.

 

[Harald Motz]

What exercises of TOA are you practicing? I have practiced the walking breath holds and liked the results. I think it might have more carryover to exercise than the typical seated buteyko exercises, but not sure.

Currently I am doing on the minute breath holds on the rower: I breathe out normally pull at a slow pace for six pulls. I dose the overall effort that I have to tame the first few breaths after just with a hint of effort, breathing is normalized quite quickly and I repeat. I am constantly monitoring the pulse oximeter, rowing speed, heart rate and I have so far a quite good hang with the correlations on subjective feelings affected by the holds. My O2 goes down in the 80%range.

So far the combination with easy locomotion is a bit more accessible for me then practicing at rest, but I think I will be getting over it quite soon.

When rowing, are you keeping some kind of rhythm between rows and breaths? I have tried this cycling, ie: one breath each 10 pedals or so, but I couldnt make it work. It didnt fit right. But maybe with rowing, that is more paused and rhythmic, it would work well. FOr instance, 1 breathe every 2 rows, or something like that.

on the 10k's my breathing pattern is as follows: I breath fully in when going backward and foreward, Then I hold that in breath while going backward, then I quickly breathe out when going foreward. Then the cycle repeats. So this gives a ratio on the lengths inbreath/outbreath = 3/1.
In the beginning it is quite easy towards the end it get's a task. As soon as I would incorporate another/faster breathing pattern, the hr would go up.

Then only when you can do it in the 5:00 with resting fully in between have you actually achieved it?

That will most probably never happen, even if you would swing 4 kilos most explosively. 2x10 reps per one minute would be around at best 1:1 work:rest ratio. Recovery will be not complete.

Secondly, is Simple meant to be done anti-glycolic?

generally yes and the simple adjustments for doing so is resting accordingly or it could be of help to reduce the reps per set to seven or even five and building back to ten again.

A safe bet for timed sessions would be Pavel's every two weeks guideline.

 

[Bret S.]

Edit: did not see Harald and Stuarts responses before posting my 2 cents

Another question. I haven’t achieved Simple. In fact, nowhere near it as 24kg is my heaviest bell and still not up to speed with it. Should I be working up to that before embarking on anything else?

That's up to you, ROP fits well with S&S as do other things including barbell work.

Secondly, is Simple meant to be done anti-glycolic? In other words, explosive reps and breathing and heart rate down before the next 10 reps? Then only when you can do it in the 5:00 with resting fully in between have you actually achieved it?

In daily practice you want to rest enough to have full power for the next set of swings, this recovery time will vary, use active rest shaking out legs and arms, nose breath only if you can. Wait for calm breathing then go again and repeat.
For testing you'll be on the clock so AG is not happening there, you'll not be rested fully between sets of swings or doing get-ups while testing.

Sorry if these are silly questions that may have been asked before...

No dumb questions but I would highly recommend reading the book, it's full of great info, I've read it at least 20 times and still find things I missed.

 

[Bret S.]

I breath fully in when going backward and foreward, Then I hold that in breath while going backward, then I quickly breathe out when going foreward. Then the cycle repeats. So this gives a ratio on the lengths inbreath/outbreath = 3/1.

Interesting timing on the rower breathing, I'll have to play with this a bit.

 

[DrFierce]

I hesitate to put my two cents in as I'm far behind (in knowledge and strength) than the others in this thread, but I'm a bit closer to where you are so perhaps my perspective may be helpful.

Another question. I haven’t achieved Simple. In fact, nowhere near it as 24kg is my heaviest bell and still not up to speed with it. Should I be working up to that before embarking on anything else?

I've been experimenting with A&A on the swings for the past few months as I've been with the 24kg bell for a while but my time test was stuck around 7 minutes. I switched to doing A+A swings 20x5 at 24 kg. It was slow going at first but after about six weeks my HR peak on these dropped and the recovery speeded up significantly, and my time to complete the set dropped. Interestingly, this seemed to happen all of a sudden. I was then able to do 100x10 in 4:50.

I also was trying to incorporate more MAF running and rowing, and improving my protein intake as well, so that may have confounded things a bit.

I also enjoy the A+A practice as it feels very meditative-- both the swings and the rest. It has helped me read my body's signals better. My form as also improved as my swing is more explosive and my plank is more powerful at the time. The main downside is it does take more time.

Secondly, is Simple meant to be done anti-glycolic? In other words, explosive reps and breathing and heart rate down before the next 10 reps? Then only when you can do it in the 5:00 with resting fully in between have you actually achieved it?

The time standard is only when you think you are ready to go up to another bell. Otherwise, you should rest between sets. My first go through the S&S book I missed the importance of this. I think it was @Steve Freides who said it truly that I find something new every time I read it.

 

[Al Ciampa]

I've been experimenting with A&A on the swings for the past few months as I've been with the 24kg bell for a while but my time test was stuck around 7 minutes. I switched to doing A+A swings 20x5 at 24 kg. It was slow going at first but after about six weeks my HR peak on these dropped and the recovery speeded up significantly, and my time to complete the set dropped. Interestingly, this seemed to happen all of a sudden. I was then able to do 100x10 in 4:50.

I also was trying to incorporate more MAF running and rowing, and improving my protein intake as well, so that may have confounded things a bit.

Please allow me a better understanding:
- you were doing S&S by the book (10 sets of 10) @ 24kg for several months, stuck at 7 min for the time trial?

- you then switched to 20 sets of 5 @ 24kg, and after 6 weeks of that change, you seemed to reach a threshold and then met the time trial?

- when exactly did you introduce running and rowing over this time period?

- when exactly did you increase your protein intake here as well?

Thanks!

 

[Bret S.]

I switched to doing A+A swings 20x5 at 24 kg. It was slow going at first but after about six weeks my HR peak on these dropped and the recovery speeded up significantly, and my time to complete the set dropped. Interestingly, this seemed to happen all of a sudden. I was then able to do 100x10 in 4:50.

I also was trying to incorporate more MAF running and rowing

I also enjoy the A+A practice

Great work doc, A&A is like 'building the perfect beast' with a Zen-like sense of ease and enjoyment.

I visited A&Aville in the past and really enjoyed it, in fact I liked it so much I moved there.

 

[DrFierce]

Please allow me a better understanding:
- you were doing S&S by the book (10 sets of 10) @ 24kg for several months, stuck at 7 min for the time trial?

1. you then switched to 20 sets of 5 @ 24kg, and after 6 weeks of that change, you seemed to reach a threshold and then met the time trial?


2. when exactly did you introduce running and rowing over this time period?

3. when exactly did you increase your protein intake here as well?

Thanks!

Hi Al

1. I just looked back in my log. I started doing A+A swings 10/20/18 and actually passed the swing test 11/22/18. Frequency was 3-4 times per week. Max HR goal was 140 (MAF +5) and I found I needed my HR to drop to around 110-115 during the rest periods to not go over threshold.

Trying to find prior swing test but I believe it was early October.

2. Running and rowing has been since August-- running more than rowing until this month due to cold and dark. Since September. MAF test had plateaued in October/November at embarrassingly slow (about 16min/mile) but last weekend was down to 15/min

3. Protein intake increased about five weeks ago. I'm sure of this because this is when I signed up for MyFitnessPal pro as I suspected that my intake was low (which turned out to be correct). I relaxed my IF schedule (previously strict no calories before noon) by adding in a whey protein shake or oatmeal in the morning at around 8-9 (last feed of night around 7 pm).


PS as a science nerd, I love titrating stuff and love learning from all of your experimentation.

 

[Caleb McCain]

Another question. I haven’t achieved Simple. In fact, nowhere near it as 24kg is my heaviest bell and still not up to speed with it. Should I be working up to that before embarking on anything else?

Secondly, is Simple meant to be done anti-glycolic? In other words, explosive reps and breathing and heart rate down before the next 10 reps? Then only when you can do it in the 5:00 with resting fully in between have you actually achieved it?

Sorry if these are silly questions that may have been asked before...

I believe most folks here would indeed advise achieving Simple as an excellent jumping off point for further kettlebell practice.

Regarding your second question: the answer is no. On testing day you must do the swings with good form and power, but you are not required (and I am not sure it is even possible) to be "fully rested" between the sets of 10 swings.

 

[needsomegrip]

Hi All,

I'd love to get some thoughts on something I've been thinking about the last couple weeks. Over the last year, I have been focused on achieving various kettlebell goals (reaching Simple, going through RoP) so running/aerobic training has taken a back seat. I'm planning out an 11 week training period in Jan-April of next year and I feel that an A+A snatch program will allow me to build a solid aerobic base (in prep for marathon training during the summer) while minimizing loss of strength that I have gained this year.

Using general wave structure from this post (credit to Sean M for detailing how this would be implemented in this thread) and understanding that the Snatch portion of A+A should be done semi-heavy, which of the following scenarios would be recommended??

1. Snatch using 24KG bell for 5reps/min. for all 11 weeks (total volume 114,240KG)
   • I feel this would be fairly easy in later weeks as this is my current bell but it is most overall volume
2. Snatch using 28KG bell for 4reps/min for all 11 weeks (total volume 106,624KG)
   • Though this is a heavier bell, it's less overall weight moved but at the same time it would likely be the "going semi-heavy" route for me -- it should be noted that I tested 24 mins with 28kg for 4reps/min yesterday and grip fatigued a lot after 18+ mins
3. Snatch first three weeks with 24KG 5/reps each min. then on Week 4 (first low volume week after 35% and 30% weeks), transition to 28KG 4/reps for each min remaining weeks if possible (total volume 109,056KG)

Since scenarios 2 & 3 are overall less weight moved at the end of the 11 week period, would I just be better off implementing strategy 1?

 

[fractal]

Hi All,

I'd love to get some thoughts on something I've been thinking about the last couple weeks. Over the last year, I have been focused on achieving various kettlebell goals (reaching Simple, going through RoP) so running/aerobic training has taken a back seat. I'm planning out an 11 week training period in Jan-April of next year and I feel that an A+A snatch program will allow me to build a solid aerobic base (in prep for marathon training during the summer) while minimizing loss of strength that I have gained this year.

Using general wave structure from this post (credit to Sean M for detailing how this would be implemented in this thread) and understanding that the Snatch portion of A+A should be done semi-heavy, which of the following scenarios would be recommended??

1. Snatch using 24KG bell for 5reps/min. for all 11 weeks (total volume 114,240KG)
   • I feel this would be fairly easy in later weeks as this is my current bell but it is most overall volume
2. Snatch using 28KG bell for 4reps/min for all 11 weeks (total volume 106,624KG)
   • Though this is a heavier bell, it's less overall weight moved but at the same time it would likely be the "going semi-heavy" route for me -- it should be noted that I tested 24 mins with 28kg for 4reps/min yesterday and grip fatigued a lot after 18+ mins
3. Snatch first three weeks with 24KG 5/reps each min. then on Week 4 (first low volume week after 35% and 30% weeks), transition to 28KG 4/reps for each min remaining weeks if possible (total volume 109,056KG)

Since scenarios 2 & 3 are overall less weight moved at the end of the 11 week period, would I just be better off implementing strategy 1?

I would be more flexible in general. A set plan for repeats per week/session is a good idea. Be flexible with reps and rest periods based on how you feel on the day and during the session. As far as I know, rest periods are never fixed - always until fully recovered (sometimes +10-20s after this point), I'm probably on the more flexible side of things with weight and reps.

 

[jhpowers]

A set plan for repeats per week/session is a good idea

How would you structure this? Im at a loss about how to plan this type of progression. Lately, I've settled in to doing 20 repeats of 5 reps every workout. My plan has been to do this until I feel like my power is totally consistent in the final sets and my form is perfect. Then start to wave the load more and increase the number of repeats, but this is totally flying by the seat of my pants. I wish that I had more of a plan.

 

[fractal]

How would you structure this? Im at a loss about how to plan this type of progression. Lately, I've settled in to doing 20 repeats of 5 reps every workout. My plan has been to do this until I feel like my power is totally consistent in the final sets and my form is perfect. Then start to wave the load more and increase the number of repeats, but this is totally flying by the seat of my pants. I wish that I had more of a plan.

I personally go by feel and might adjust volume for certain days of the week where I have more or less time.

I’m the minority, but sometimes I like to work in swings once my power drops off to get a bit more volume without grooving bad technique. Also, I find I can get more density and better recovery with repeats of 4 and shorter rests - if the weight is very heavy for me I’ll drop to 3.

Why not try to average 20NR per session with some waviness? - something like 18, 22, 24, 14, 20, 16, 26.

 

[needsomegrip]

I would be more flexible in general. A set plan for repeats per week/session is a good idea. Be flexible with reps and rest periods based on how you feel on the day and during the session. As far as I know, rest periods are never fixed - always until fully recovered (sometimes +10-20s after this point), I'm probably on the more flexible side of things with weight and reps.

Maybe I did get down a bit of a rabbit hole planning out exact total volume for each scenario, there of course will be fluctuation depending on multiple factors.

Looking back on my last attempt at 28kg, I was a bit rushed near the end trying to keep it every minute, on the minute. I'll keep the rough plan to start with the 24kg and see how the first of two weeks of increased volume go and then possibly transition to the 28kg.

 

[fractal]

Maybe I did get down a bit of a rabbit hole planning out exact total volume for each scenario, there of course will be fluctuation depending on multiple factors.

Looking back on my last attempt at 28kg, I was a bit rushed near the end trying to keep it every minute, on the minute. I'll keep the rough plan to start with the 24kg and see how the first of two weeks of increased volume go and then possibly transition to the 28kg.

I find it's very dependent on the day - both in how you feel and in how heat/humidity affects your grip on the bell.

Last Saturday, I was able to do 42NR 28kg x 3 snatch, but there have been a couple sessions this week where I capped it at 10NR because my power was dropping. My advice (for what it's worth) would be to go for it with the 28kg when you're up to it and drop the reps, repeats and/or weight on the less spectacular days. No problem with switching back to the 24kg halfway through as well.

You can always rest longer.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Amazing how this thread has evolved over time. Thanks @Harald Motz for starting it.

Hi All,

I'd love to get some thoughts on something I've been thinking about the last couple weeks. Over the last year, I have been focused on achieving various kettlebell goals (reaching Simple, going through RoP) so running/aerobic training has taken a back seat. I'm planning out an 11 week training period in Jan-April of next year and I feel that an A+A snatch program will allow me to build a solid aerobic base (in prep for marathon training during the summer) while minimizing loss of strength that I have gained this year.

Using general wave structure from this post (credit to Sean M for detailing how this would be implemented in this thread) and understanding that the Snatch portion of A+A should be done semi-heavy, which of the following scenarios would be recommended??

1. Snatch using 24KG bell for 5reps/min. for all 11 weeks (total volume 114,240KG)
   • I feel this would be fairly easy in later weeks as this is my current bell but it is most overall volume
2. Snatch using 28KG bell for 4reps/min for all 11 weeks (total volume 106,624KG)
   • Though this is a heavier bell, it's less overall weight moved but at the same time it would likely be the "going semi-heavy" route for me -- it should be noted that I tested 24 mins with 28kg for 4reps/min yesterday and grip fatigued a lot after 18+ mins
3. Snatch first three weeks with 24KG 5/reps each min. then on Week 4 (first low volume week after 35% and 30% weeks), transition to 28KG 4/reps for each min remaining weeks if possible (total volume 109,056KG)

Since scenarios 2 & 3 are overall less weight moved at the end of the 11 week period, would I just be better off implementing strategy 1?

This is really too sciency for practical purposes. @fractal is giving you some fine advice. It’s just a blue collar jog—go in and do the work each day. Your body changes such that you can go in and do the work each day. These changes tend to carry over to just about any other work you might one day do, and, far better health.

How would you structure this? Im at a loss about how to plan this type of progression. Lately, I've settled in to doing 20 repeats of 5 reps every workout. My plan has been to do this until I feel like my power is totally consistent in the final sets and my form is perfect. Then start to wave the load more and increase the number of repeats, but this is totally flying by the seat of my pants. I wish that I had more of a plan.

Again, @fractal is spot on. What more of a plan do you need?

I’d suggest meditation, and search the depths of your psyche for what you truly need—the plan is quite comprehensive.

 

[Harry Westgate]

I’d suggest meditation, and search the depths of your psyche for what you truly need—the plan is quite comprehensive.

This can probably be applied to anything in life. Physical training or otherwise... Very nicely put, thanks Al.

 

[Manuel Fortin]

For another testimonial, A+A snatches has been my program for the last 2.5 months. Last summer, I got back to playing a sport for the first time in 5 years. I played tennis. At the end of the summer, I had pain in at least 5 different spots (looks like I am not 20 anymore...) and decided to drop the barbell and do kettlebells for a few months. I basically snatched 3 times a week on a medium hard easy pattern, Monday , Wednesday and Friday. Other than that, I did a few getups after the snatches (32 and 40kg) and a quick warmup that includes arm bars, a light getup, bird dogs, rocking and goblet squats (not in that order necessarily). I have a desk job and other than walking total 30-60 minutes a week, I do nothing physically demanding. Most days, training is over in less than one hour. Once in a while, I go up to 70-75 minutes, if I have a good day and do a lot of getups after the snatches.

I started with the 24 and progressed slowly to the 32. For example, on Oct. 24, my first day with the program, I did 24 sets of 5 snatches with the 24 kg bell in 23 minutes. I didn't time all sessions and was not chasing a time at any point. I just started a timer and looked at it at the end of the session once in a while to assess progress. My first training day with the 32 kg bell was 20 sets of 3 in 20:30 on Oct. 31. I used a mix of 24 and 32 until a mid-December. Today, I just did 20 sets of 4 with the 32 kg in 20 minutes. So, 33% more work in the same time period with similar effort with only a bit more than 2 months of training, and I missed close to 2 weeks in early December as I traveled and then was sick. Also, 60 snatches with the 32 was a "hard" day in October, and 80 snatches with the same bell is an "easy" day now. My hard day this week was 120 snatches with the 32.

This is nothing short of amazing, especially since I started not completely out of shape after a summer of tennis, along with 100-150 snatches a week over the summer. Also, snatches are much more powerful now and if I really give it all in a rep, the 32 almost goes too high. I even have hopes of being able to snatch the 40 one day.

Highly recommended.

 

[Harald Motz]

comparison of snatching 40kg 5rx20, exactly 13 months in between:

from 12-05-2017: snatch 40kg - 5rx20 - 31:30min - 125avg hr/141max hr


today: snatch 40kg - 5rx20 - 20minutes emom - 122avg/140max

slightly lower heart rates today but completed the work more than 11 minutes faster. It is my second 40kg 5rx20 emom lately since a short period in September last year. It is my most "relaxed" effort with this scheme so far. Looking at longer time frames can be very pleasing to do. These things seem to be going quite well, so I want to accumulate further.

 

[Stuart Elliott]

@Harald Motz congatulations, 5rx20 in 20 mins is insane with a 40kg! You're showing us A&A snatchers the way!