Kettlebell Pros and Cons of Different Swing-Types?

[North Coast Miller]

I have the 48's but even if I could swing them outside the legs (which I can't) they would smash my knees to bits. The only way for me is between the legs (which I can't do either)
A friend of mine prefers outside double snatch, me not so much

I can do single outside the leg and to me it makes my glutes catch fire.

I also like doing outside swings with a sandbag and staggered foot placement.

One thing I've noticed playing around with various swings, they all hit to varying degrees quad, hamstring, glutes, erectors. The specific variant will determine how much of an emphasis where, but nothing hits them all the same - if you are working a variation that targets quads more, it will de-emphasize the glutes. Glutes and hammies heavy, the erectors not so much, and the quads hardly. At least when I'm doing them.

I just sub out various hinge movements and use several - they all have benefit.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't a kettle bell swing more of a horizontal force production and a power clean is more of a vertical force production.

Yes but it doesn't matter. The muscles used are the same. For a KB swing, the "power position" is with the torso bent over and the KB "hiked" between the legs. For a barbell clean (or snatch), the power position is with the torso vertical as shown in the video. It's this vertical torso that allows the bar to move vertically. Using a barbell probably involves the quads a bit more than in a swing, but the posterior chain is very heavily involved. I would argue that a KB swing is like a pull with a barbell, just tipped over.

Clean From Power Position Exercise Demo Video and Info

 

[North Coast Miller]

I've always viewed the Swing as a vertical row, minus the arm work.

When I do Single Leg DL with sandbag the mechanics are virtually identical to a row performed on one foot. I have to use some arm to lift the bag for full ROM of the hips and I keep it chambered as I hinge up.

 

[Waffles03]

Yes but it doesn't matter. The muscles used are the same

Would it be safe to assume that there are carry over from doing power cleans to kettle bell swing?

Also, I box and I notice that the kettle bell swing have helped me to utilize more of my hips into my punches. So would I be able to get the same benefit from doing power cleans as well? Thank you.

 

[Bret S.]

I just sub out various hinge movements and use several - they all have benefit.

Smart man, it's no good doing the same thing all the time. For now I'm doing:

- heavy 2 hand swings (my back loves them)
- anchored double cleans
- double cleans
- double swings
- double snatches

All varying though I'm really digging the anchored cleans.
Everything is done in the cluster format

It's 95 degrees in my training area and I have 60 sets of 8 rep VWC to do Oh well, it's only 30 mins.. if things start to go South I'll have to stop

 

[MikeTheBear]

Would it be safe to assume that there are carry over from doing power cleans to kettle bell swing?

Also, I box and I notice that the kettle bell swing have helped me to utilize more of my hips into my punches. So would I be able to get the same benefit from doing power cleans as well? Thank you.

This article by Craig Marker will answer your questions. Learning good technique in the power clean will not happen overnight. My recommendation would be to milk the benefits of the swing all you can. Buy heavier KBs if you don't mind spending the money. They make 92 kgs. KBs but those will run you $400 plus with shipping. T-handles are much cheaper if you want to go that route.

The What the Hell Effect: How the Swing Improves Everything

 

[barrak]

Any thoughts on double unequal weight swings?

I'm asking because I'm currently doing S&S 1H swings with half the sets being x10 swings with a 24K and the other half x5-7 with a 32K. However, for the next three weeks I'll have access to only one 16K and one 20K bells. Should I do double swings with these two bells or should I switch maybe to 10x10 snatches with the 20K?

 

[Anna C]

However, for the next three weeks I'll have access to only one 16K and one 20K bells. Should I do double swings with these two bells or should I switch maybe to 10x10 snatches with the 20K?

I think either one could work fine - double kettlebell swings w/ 16+20kg (switching hands each set of course), or do some snatches. If you're new to snatches, maybe some of both, totalling 100 swings+snatches in a session if you're doing it near daily, or 100-200 in a session if you're doing it 3x/week or so.

 

[barrak]

I think either one could work fine - double kettlebell swings w/ 16+20kg (switching hands each set of course), or do some snatches. If you're new to snatches, maybe some of both, totalling 100 swings+snatches in a session if you're doing it near daily, or 100-200 in a session if you're doing it 3x/week or so.

Thanks Anna for the green light on the mixed double swings. Once a week I do 20-30 snatch repeats ala A+A with 20/24K, so I'm fairly competent in this department. I'll try the mixed swings or even shadow swings with the 20K. If I don't get enough loading I'll just go for the snatches. Good to know I can up the counts if practicing 3 days a week or so.

 

[WxHerk]

I'll double down on @Anna C 's recommendation for the simple reason that when actually lifting/toting/moving stuff outside of strength training do you ensure the load is equal between your right and left side?

Life is asymmetric, I believe it beneficial to train as such.

 

[watchnerd]

1H swing

• Pro
  • Asymmetrical stabilization
  • Challenges the grip
• Con
  • Lots of people do it less than optimally, leading to issues or less than optimal results (solution: see an SFG instructor or post a form check here on the forum)
  • Grip or other limitations limit how much you can load or challenge the hips and rest of the body

Doubles

• Pro
  • Heavy loading
  • Additional challenge to use a lot of power, yet maintain good control of both bells. Technique must be good!
  • Works well as part of a complex or chain
    • Doubles complex example: 5 swings + 5 cleans
    • Doubles chain example: swing, clean, press, swing, clean, squat
• Con
  • Wider stance, often wider than comfortable for knees
  • Power projection sometimes limited by ability to control the kettlebells

I'll double down on @Anna C 's recommendation for the simple reason that when actually lifting/toting/moving stuff outside of strength training do you ensure the load is equal between your right and left side?

Life is asymmetric, I believe it beneficial to train as such.

I've been spending some of the extra time during the holiday playing with double swings, including asymmetrical loading with different weights in each hand.

At a 4 kg difference between bells, the anti-rotation aspect isn't super noticeable, but at an 8 kg difference it certainly is.

It hits that same part of my anterior core that alternating KB MPs also hit.

I'm starting to like doubles a lot, although I feel them a lot less in my hamstrings and a lot more in my glutes, especially glute med and other side butt locations.

Although I'm not so convinced I like doubles for higher volume 10x10. 5x10 seems about right to me, and do the remaining sets 2 handed; there isn't so much need for 1 handed swing anti-rotation core work after asymmetrical doubles.

 

[watchnerd]

I have done lots of Dbl presses, jerks, cleans and squats, but basically only Dbl swing makes that ”man”-effect. Maybe it’s the power, maybe something else...

Looking at my HR monitor, I think it feels manly because of how quickly it spikes your heart rate.

"Why" is something I don't understand. For me, the same weight swung with a heavier bell, 2 handed (e.g. 40 kg) doesn't spike my heart rate as much as 2 x 20 kg.

It's not obvious to me why this should be the case, other than it must be using "more muscles" to do the same amount of work?

 

[Anna C]

Looking at my HR monitor, I think it feels manly because of how quickly it spikes your heart rate.

"Why" is something I don't understand. For me, the same weight swung with a heavier bell, 2 handed (e.g. 40 kg) doesn't spike my heart rate as much as 2 x 20 kg.

It's not obvious to me why this should be the case, other than it must be using "more muscles" to do the same amount of work?

HR increase is driven by more things than the amount of muscles working. For me, any "trickier" task will elevate my HR more than something in which I have complete confidence, even if it's the same load. You've probably heard the term "feed forward tension" (something StrongFirst teaches)... well, I think of this as "feed forward energy". The mind knows what must be done and the stress response in the body helps prepare it for the task and ensure energy is on hand for it. Any slight difference in the amount of this occurring will change the HR response to the exercise. If you've ever read Robert Sapolsky's "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" you can understand how nuanced, quick, complex, and impactful this stress response can be within the body.

 

[watchnerd]

HR increase is driven by more things than the amount of muscles working. For me, any "trickier" task will elevate my HR more than something in which I have complete confidence, even if it's the same load. You've probably heard the term "feed forward tension" (something StrongFirst teaches)... well, I think of this as "feed forward energy". The mind knows what must be done and the stress response in the body helps prepare it for the task and ensure energy is on hand for it. Any slight difference in the amount of this occurring will change the HR response to the exercise. If you've ever read Robert Sapolsky's "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" you can understand how nuanced, quick, complex, and impactful this stress response can be within the body.

Interesting.

I know what I get that sensation, it's a double-edged sword:

The training effect is powerful, but the risk of adrenal fatigue is high if I do too much of it, too frequently.

 

[watchnerd]

Any thoughts on double unequal weight swings?

I'm asking because I'm currently doing S&S 1H swings with half the sets being x10 swings with a 24K and the other half x5-7 with a 32K. However, for the next three weeks I'll have access to only one 16K and one 20K bells. Should I do double swings with these two bells or should I switch maybe to 10x10 snatches with the 20K?

I just did a bunch of double unequal swings.

I found a 4 kg difference between bells to be barely noticeable, but an 8 kg difference was enough to feel one side (core, shoulder) working much harder than the other.

I can't say I felt the difference in weight much in my hips/legs, though. Maybe a bit in my feet.

 

[Steve Freides]

HR increase is driven by more things than the amount of muscles working. For me, any "trickier" task will elevate my HR more than something in which I have complete confidence, even if it's the same load.

When I was first learning Buteyko breathing, I was encouraged to take my pulse before each session, and as a result, I acquired some bit of skill at manipulating my own heart rate. So the other day, I was wearing a HRM and getting ready to do some swings, and I noticed, even before I started, that just the act of thinking about doing the swings caused my HR to go up. I then tried - successfully - to bring it back down again before I walked over to the kettlebell and started. First, just by realizing that I was visualizing/imaging swinging the kettlebell and I could stop doing that, which took care of most of it, and then by whatever bit of magic I seem to have figured out to get it to go a few beats lower.

All this to say that it's not even _doing_ something trickier, it can even be just be thinking about doing something trickier that's in play here as well.

-S-

 

[barrak]

When I was first learning Buteyko breathing, I was encouraged to take my pulse before each session, and as a result, I acquired some bit of skill at manipulating my own heart rate. So the other day, I was wearing a HRM and getting ready to do some swings, and I noticed, even before I started, that just the act of thinking about doing the swings caused my HR to go up. I then tried - successfully - to bring it back down again before I walked over to the kettlebell and started. First, just by realizing that I was visualizing/imaging swinging the kettlebell and I could stop doing that, which took care of most of it, and then by whatever bit of magic I seem to have figured out to get it to go a few beats lower.

All this to say that it's not even _doing_ something trickier, it can even be just be thinking about doing something trickier that's in play here as well.

-S-

It's not just with heart rate. My head sweats every time I eat extra spicy food. It also sweats when I call in an order from my favorite Indian restaurant!

 

[Anna C]

All this to say that it's not even _doing_ something trickier, it can even be just be thinking about doing something trickier that's in play here as well.

Absolutely. I have heard and observed that this affects HRV (heart rate variability) as well. The heart rate quickens on inhale and slows on exhale. The degree to which it does this is HRV, and indicates dominance of parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. So if I'm psyched up about something, HRV decreases and my sympathetic (fight or flight) is more dominant. If I'm relaxed and confident, my HRV increases and my parasympathetic is more dominant. This is super easy to measure and experiment with using a Polar HRM and a free app like Elite HRV. However, during any strenuous exercise HRV will be low, so I think it can be more easily seen with something like a light bottom-up get-up, or trying to balance on a wobble board... challenging, but not requiring much exertion.

And all that is really just another view into the same thing as "HR increase is driven by more things than the amount of muscles working" because the stress response is what activates the sympathetic NS.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Anna C, I just downloaded that app and will give it a try. From a little bit of reading I just did, it sounds like when one is at rest is when one wants to look at the HRV numbers - is that right? I'm curious to know, if you know, what skipping a beat means in terms of HRV. My heart skips a beat now and then, a fact commented on by my doctors but is apparently not indicative of any problem. I would think that skipping a beat might translate into a high HRV.

Thanks.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C, I just downloaded that app and will give it a try. From a little bit of reading I just did, it sounds like when one is at rest is when one wants to look at the HRV numbers - is that right? I'm curious to know, if you know, what skipping a beat means in terms of HRV. My heart skips a beat now and then, a fact commented on by my doctors but is apparently not indicative of any problem. I would think that skipping a beat might translate into a high HRV.

Thanks.

-S-

Yes, generally read at rest, either lying down or sitting. For people in really excellent aerobic condition (Ironman triathletes, for instance), they recommend taking the reading standing, just to get enough stress on the heart to measure a difference from day to day. Either way, the goal is to be consistent with your reading so your morning reading indicates something about your NS state, which therefore (theoretically) indicates something about your degree of stress and recovery.

Other than the morning readiness reading, you can take a reading anytime during the day while doing anything at all. You might try before, during, and after a Buteyko breathing session, for instance. I think you'll see that a breathing practice session increases your HRV.

As for skipping a beat, I think it's unrelated. My heart does that too, but only a few times per day, so it's unlikely to happen during the 1-2 minutes I'm taking a reading. If it does, I suppose that depends how the algorithm handles it as to whether it affects the result.