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Other/Mixed Asking for impossible advice - optimizing endurance and explosiveness

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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bernieholliday

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First time visitor, first time poster. I’m at a loss for how to do this, and this group seems versatile and knowledgable enough that it might be able to provide resources and guidance to help me crack this code...

BLUF: I want to jump really high and run really far. I have no idea how to do this!

Background: I was a competitive doubles volleyball player for about 15 years. Jumping high was key, especially for me being a shorter guy. Then, I got bit by the trail ultrarunning bug and fascinated by the idea of how far I could run before I’d break. So, over the past 10+ years, I’ve done numerous 50k trail races and several 50mi trail races while giving up volleyball completely.

Current: I want to start competing again in higher level amateur beach volleyball events and still run long distance events. I want to introduce and expose my 8-year old daughter to the volleyball scene and hopefully ignite a spark for the sport without being “that parent.” But I can’t jump anymore. And I still want to maintain enough muscular endurance and joint/tendon/muscle durability to tackle the occasional 50k trail run and to run 60-90 minutes regularly in the backcountry for peace of mind. How do I train to balance both? I have my CSCS credential and so I have a decent working knowledge of training, and I fully understand that by training for one, I’m going ruin the other. But I’m lost as to whether there’s a compromise way of training where you can be decent at both?

Note: I’m probably wired more for strength and power sports. I respond very well to explosive training and strength work. I respond terribly to endurance training and I suffer heavily during the longer 50mi events. So, perhaps that filters into this equation?

Any ideas, suggestions, references, articles, etc?

Thanks in advance for any guidance this group can provide - I’m going to go further search your site now and hopefully fall into some fun and meaningful rabbit holes!
 
my 2c worth.

to be good in both aspects = it is going to be pretty much impossible. to be decent at both = possible with intelligent programming.

personally my predominant training is around strength/explosiveness (weights, sprints/jumps, judo/bjj). I do some endurance work which I tolerate well (up to a point), but my aim here is just to keep my heart in good shape rather than crack a 40min 10k etc.

I emphasis EITHER the strength/power side OR the endurance side for about 4-6 weeks at a time, and keeping a min dose of the other attribute.

I would encourage writing up a rough plan, stick with it for 4 weeks and see how things go and recalibrate from there.
 
First time visitor, first time poster. I’m at a loss for how to do this, and this group seems versatile and knowledgable enough that it might be able to provide resources and guidance to help me crack this code...

BLUF: I want to jump really high and run really far. I have no idea how to do this!

Background: I was a competitive doubles volleyball player for about 15 years. Jumping high was key, especially for me being a shorter guy. Then, I got bit by the trail ultrarunning bug and fascinated by the idea of how far I could run before I’d break. So, over the past 10+ years, I’ve done numerous 50k trail races and several 50mi trail races while giving up volleyball completely.

Current: I want to start competing again in higher level amateur beach volleyball events and still run long distance events. I want to introduce and expose my 8-year old daughter to the volleyball scene and hopefully ignite a spark for the sport without being “that parent.” But I can’t jump anymore. And I still want to maintain enough muscular endurance and joint/tendon/muscle durability to tackle the occasional 50k trail run and to run 60-90 minutes regularly in the backcountry for peace of mind. How do I train to balance both? I have my CSCS credential and so I have a decent working knowledge of training, and I fully understand that by training for one, I’m going ruin the other. But I’m lost as to whether there’s a compromise way of training where you can be decent at both?

Note: I’m probably wired more for strength and power sports. I respond very well to explosive training and strength work. I respond terribly to endurance training and I suffer heavily during the longer 50mi events. So, perhaps that filters into this equation?

Any ideas, suggestions, references, articles, etc?

Thanks in advance for any guidance this group can provide - I’m going to go further search your site now and hopefully fall into some fun and meaningful rabbit holes!
First off... welcome to SF.
Speaking of rabbits... what you are talking about is akin to the old adage about chasing two rabbits and thus catching neither.
But as @godjira1 noted with some intelligent programming you might get ‘okay’ at both.
You might consider keeping a training log on this site. Once you have stuff written down here, it won’t be long until you start getting feedback.

Again, welcome...
 
to be good in both aspects = it is going to be pretty much impossible. to be decent at both = possible with intelligent programming.
what you are talking about is akin to the old adage about chasing two rabbits and thus catching neither.

Power and Endurance

As godira and offwidth noted, being a "jump high" and having a lot of being able to "Run really far" isn't going to happen.

Jumping involves Power.

Running really far involves Endurance.

The See Saw

Think of Power being on one end of a See Saw and Endurance on the opposite other end of the See Saw.

Then Power goes up, Endurance goes down.

When Endurance goes up, Power goes down.

"Jack of All Trades, Master of None"

Combining Power Training for Jumps and Endurance Training for Running will improve both.

It equates to having the See Saw balance, level.

That means you will be fairly good a both but will not excel at either Jumping or Running Far.
 
@bernieholliday
I was reflecting on this a bit.
Consider something along these lines:

Do S&S until you reach the simple standard. This will build a very solid strength foundation. Concurrent with the S&S do as much LED running as you can and still recovery adequately.
Once you reach simple, then transfer into Q&D with an emphasis on ‘jumping’ type training. Again keep up and increase if possible your LED running.
Then you might need to consider some sort of periodization or seasonal focus training.

It goes without saying that your diet will also need to be dialed in to support your training.

As Kenny just posted nobody lives at both ends of the spectrum. The conditions are so disparate that getting good by any real definition of the word at both is just not going to happen.

I too, swim in different pools but I firmly grasp the limitations and accept that I will never be good at either strength or endurance
 
Maybe long term alternating blocks (6 weeks?) of the Q&D (power) and A&A (conditioning) type protocols? May not hit your ultimate goal but it would seem that the long term benefits could provide some pleasing progress towards it .
 
Do S&S until you reach the simple standard. This will build a very solid strength foundation. Concurrent with the S&S do as much LED running as you can and still recovery adequately.
Once you reach simple, then transfer into Q&D with an emphasis on ‘jumping’ type training. Again keep up and increase if possible your LED running.
Then you might need to consider some sort of periodization or seasonal focus training.
@bernieholliday

+1 to offwidth's comments.

You have two very ambitious goals so that right there is a lot to chew on. Nothing is impossible, but setting yourself up for success in the beginning is what will keep you on track long term. If it was me I would go after the competitive volleyball first and mix in a few 5-10K runs from time to time. Eventually, the 50K won't seem so far off and your training could then begin to reflect what is necessary to get there.
 
Hi.
I remember Harold Motz describing his program (some time ago): 20 -40 mins repeats followed by 20 - 40 mins LSD done 6 x per week. Hope I've remembered that right.
 
It would be nice also to know your current age and overall condition (weight, bf%) that would help the community to help you out!
Age 47
Height 5’ 10”
Weight 170 current, 155 feels like my sweet spot
BF% Too Fat (honestly I don’t know but subjectively I was feeling great around 155 and 13-15% BF when I got tested at work 6 months ago, but then the dreaded COVID 15 got me and haven’t been back at work physically to get tested again yet)

Typical programming is “feel it out” day-to-day to accommodate my work and travel schedule (I’m sure this freestyling approach gives many here the cringe factor ?), but usually (a) 4-5x a week of HIIT intervals similar to... 10 rounds of 1. a push/press resistance move, 2. pull resistance move, 3. squat or hinge resistance move, and 4. and a 200m sprint. When those 10 rounds are done, I follow it up with 15-30 minutes of some specific targeted explosive or mobility or core work (jumping or Olympic lifts or yoga or GHD work, etc.). With all of this, I mix up my push-pull-squat-hinge exercises, sets/reps/resistance from day-to-day to tackle different planes of movement, higher intensity days, higher volume days, etc. Then (b) 4-5 days a week, a LSD run of 4-8 miles with a longer one thrown in every few weeks. So, about 3 days each week doing both (a) followed by (b) or vice versa.

And not married to this at all - This was just what I landed on to focus more on longer distance running but trying to maintain some size and strength. So, now I’m thinking I need to flip the goals to focus on beach volleyball-readiness but still trying to maintain some endurance.

Hope this helps
 
I like the general consensus so far.
You can get pretty good in both, with patience. You yourself know you won't be great in both.

IMO, alternate a gain/maintain strategy. Gain in one (3x a week), maintain in the other (1x week). Switch when necessary
 
@bernieholliday - Welcome!

I agree with other posters;

Consider basic periodisation - you may have an endurance race / event you'd like to enter, so balance you training for explosiveness / endurance more on the side of endurance as you approach that event (and visa versa)

Also I think it may be worth defining what height of jumping ability and endurance ability would satisfy your needs / desires.

You could probably maintain endurance with a long run every 3 weeks TBH.

When you have both the explosive goal and the endurance goal more clearly defined you may find you can train both concurrently year round - and if not periodise - picking your time to be more enduring or powerful as required.

Great goals BTW - nothing better than being able to role model and support your kids with sport!
 
Have you measured your jumping ability?
As you said, you could lose 15 pounds and would feel great.
If I were you I would measure my jump then work two-three days strength (5/3/1 or some other linear strength program), 3 days of running, then at least one day of volleyball skill work. I would definitely warm up with jumps and throws before strength days.
6 weeks of this, measure your jumping and adjust from there.
 
Hi.
I remember Harold Motz describing his program (some time ago): 20 -40 mins repeats followed by 20 - 40 mins LSD done 6 x per week. Hope I've remembered that right.
That sounds about right. If I remember correctly he broke the sessions up by 2-4 hours.
 
Food for thought - instead of chasing 2 rabbits and missing both, there may well be a way of killing 2 birds with one light stone...

we have always advocated snatching as explosively as possible. However, we did not switch to lighter bells and thus maximized the overspeed eccentric overload effect until Kenneth Jay’s unexpected, penicillin-like discovery. Rif doing overspeed kettlebell snatches. The Danish researcher had set out to develop the most effective protocol for cardiovascular training. Having done his research, the Dane of Pain developed his VO2 max protocol using 16-kg kettlebells. Imagine his surprise when the subjects saw a dramatic increase in their vertical jump! As stated by Master RKC Mark Reifkind, who has been the most vocal proponent of going lighter and faster in kettlebell snatches, Kenneth has given us the “permission to go light.” A much-needed permission, given the heavy lifting backgrounds of many of our Comrades. Because the kettlebell travels a greater distance in the snatch than in the swing and has a chance to accumulate incredible kinetic energy, it has to be very light for the girevik to feel safe to accelerate it on the way down. If the bell is too heavy, he will not be giving it an overspeed eccentric and will miss out on the training effects of this amazing modality. A 16 kg hits the spot for most trained men. A 24 kg is enough for very strong men. I believe one more reason that performing overspeed eccentric snatches with a light kettlebell is so effective in promoting explosiveness is nervous system disinhibition. Normally, you are subconsciously holding back and not expressing all your power out of a preprogrammed fear of injury. After having performed a number of fast snatches safely, you ease off on the brakes and really let it rip. But this will only happen if the bell is very light.​

John, Dan. Easy Strength: How to Get a Lot Stronger Than Your Competition-And Dominate in Your Sport (pp. 332-334). DD Publications. Kindle Edition.
 
A fast twitch guy that likes to run long, nice. Hope your nutrition,sleep,stress management, and auto-regulation are on point.
Wave the following: BB or KB, some heavy days, some fast/power days, running, 80 % MAF, 20 % HIIT, volleyball practice.
Probably what you are already doing.
 
There is a division between power and endurance certainly but it needn't be binary for generalism. It only really matters for specialism and where you want to aim, or the competition level you covet.

You can see this at a marathon event. A muscle bound strong guy will not get near an elite distance runner but can still eek out a good performance. My nephew runs a 2.45 marathon. Strong as an ox. Squash player. Former marine. Explosive and endurant.
For him to improve at marathons he needed to lose muscle mass and didn't want to be weaker. Something has to give, right?
And at some point. Where is that point critical for you?

For a lot of us a big GPP base can be pretty wide, edging into both power and endurance ends. The figurative see-saw is a nice analogy....

if at both ends of a see-saw there is a zone to sit on and a handle to hold on to...a GPP base spreads out from the middle but there is a limit to the length and spread. Get to the handles of both sides. If you shift into a seat at either end, the other end suffers. So to optimise your endurance, power suffers. To optimise power, endurance suffers. But it is not binary. It is ok to be pretty good at both and it is entirely possible physiologically.

You can't have it all but you can have most of it. Be a decathlete, rather than a specialist, a box to box midfielder (soccer) or, er, a volleyball player.

S&S, volleyball, easy runs and when the time comes, add some mileage to your running, head down, do the thing, finish.

As someone once said, performance is 90% mental the other half is physical.
 
I would think that A+A snatches plus plenty of easy LSD work would keep one's vertical jump up to snuff and one's endurance within "peaking distance" of an upcoming ultra event.
 
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