all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Double C&J critique

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

ntapsak

Level 6 Valued Member
Hi Strongfirst folks,

I have been practicing the single C&J for the past 6 weeks with a 55lb (25kg) kettlebell and want to move on to doubles for the next month - C&J is my absolute favorite lift and one I want to spend a lot of time on and master. Short-ish term goals are to do Strong! doing the C&J with 2x55lb bells (later this summer or the fall), for now I'm looking to build up my work capacity and skill on this lift. I also aim to start training for a race later this summer and think this lift would be a good one to practice with endurance running.

Please critique my double form. I'm using 2x40lb bells (my 10RM). My self-assessment is that I'm strong in the clean and the second dip, but lacking in the first dip to drive. Sometimes when I video myself the first dip is straight down, vertical torso (and when I do a push press or drill the jerk form without weights in a mirror), and other times it's slower and less vertical (as you see here). Another note: I have very double-jointed elbows, especially on my left arm. I used to do my TGUs with the elbow hyperextended and it eventually became uncomfortable. I try to avoid the hyperextending to make my arms as straight as possible.

Concerning the drive - please help me understand how triple extension works in the hardstyle jerk. I have no problem understanding it in the GS jerk, but that's not what I'm after. Should I be consciously contracting my glutes through the whole exercise, or only in the drive? This is pretty light weight so either way doesn't make much difference, but I want to practice it powerfully for when I go up in weight. Thanks all!



 
Last edited:
Looks good to me @ntapsak. You'll probably get some more detailed critique but I would say just keep practicing. Work on staying really tight in the rack so you get a better launch. Your cleans look really good!

My self-assessment is that I'm strong in the clean and the catch, but lacking in the first dip to drive. Sometimes when I video myself the first dip is straight down, vertical torso (and when I do a push press or drill the jerk form without weights in a mirror), and other times it's slower and less vertical (as you see here).
Sounds about right. Pay attention to where the weight is on your feet for the dip and drive. Do it in slow motion at times. Keeping the weight midfoot or towards the heel is what I would recommend. Also practice "half-jerks" - from my SFG II manual -- "Half-jerks will make you understand how to drive the kettlebells off your chest without using your arms.... Start doing springy quarter squats with a pair of kettlebells in the rack. Keep your weight over the center of your feet and your spine straight and nearly vertical. Speed up. Faster. Even faster. Eventually the kettlebells will start separating from your chest by a few inches and become momentarily weightless. Keep your arms relaxed.... keep practicing until you have managed to launch the kettlebell up to your head level without any help from your arm and shoulder."

Another note: I have very double-jointed elbows, especially on my left arm. I used to do my TGUs with the elbow hyperextended and it eventually became uncomfortable. I try to avoid the hyperextending to make my arms as straight as possible.
Use muscle tension to avoid excess stress on the joints.

Concerning the drive - please help me understand how triple extension works in the hardstyle jerk.
You can let your heels come up at the end of the hip extension, or not, your choice. From the SFG II jerk standard: "Lifting the heels during the first dip and during the catch is not allowed but the heels may raise during the drive."

Having said that, the ankles can still extend even if your heels never leave the ground. If the feet stay flat but the shin angle changes, then you are using triple extension -- ankles along with knees and hips.

Triple extension is all about using multiple joint angles (and corresponding muscle groups) to produce force.
Should I be consciously contracting my glutes through the whole exercise, or only in the drive?
I would say during the drive (hip extension) is when the glutes are doing the most work. They are working to some degree throughout the movement, but I wouldn't put specific focus on them. Focus on producing force in the desired direction.
 
Sounds about right. Pay attention to where the weight is on your feet for the dip and drive. Do it in slow motion at times. Keeping the weight midfoot or towards the heel is what I would recommend. Also practice "half-jerks" - from my SFG II manual -- "Half-jerks will make you understand how to drive the kettlebells off your chest without using your arms.... Start doing springy quarter squats with a pair of kettlebells in the rack. Keep your weight over the center of your feet and your spine straight and nearly vertical. Speed up. Faster. Even faster. Eventually the kettlebells will start separating from your chest by a few inches and become momentarily weightless. Keep your arms relaxed.... keep practicing until you have managed to launch the kettlebell up to your head level without any help from your arm and shoulder."
Thanks for this cue reminder (half jerks) as I'm re-learning the jerk nowadays. How challenging should the weight be? Also, I remember Pavel suggesting practicing push presses (or maybe VPPs) after toasting the arms with strict presses to focus on the drive. Same for half jerks?
 
Looks good to me @ntapsak.
I agree. I'll make one suggestion. In my mind, the essence of the jerk is the combination of "drive up" and "drop under" - there is no stopping between these two, but one can stop in other places of the movement, and that's what I recommend you try. I'm not recommending you change your training, just try as a way to feel the movement and master the steps. In particular, I'd stop at the catch, when your knees are bent and the bells are overhead. The idea is to get from the rack position to the catch as almost a single thought, one explosive movement wherein you launch the bells and the drop under them. The ideal timing is that the bells lockout overhead at the same time you hit the bottom of your drop.

Rack, then dip - this one can be fast or medium or slow - then "boom, boom" to drive the bells up and yourself down and catch, and just hang out there for a second or two, and notice how you got there. Was it explosive? Did you hit bells at the top and butt at its lowest point at the same time? From there, you can stand up, but I think this one spot is important to pause at from time to time in one's training.

-S-
 
Looks solid to me..

What you can do better is you don't need to dips so low during the catch, just enough to receive the bells and return to staring position.

As for the first dip, think of letting the knees glide in the path of the big toe then quickly drive up and explode..

Good job so far, keep going
 
Thanks for this cue reminder (half jerks) as I'm re-learning the jerk nowadays. How challenging should the weight be?
Moderate -- snatch test-size, probably. For me, 16+16, for you, 24+24, or working your way up to that - as heavy as you can clean.

Also, I remember Pavel suggesting practicing push presses (or maybe VPPs) after toasting the arms with strict presses to focus on the drive. Same for half jerks?
Sure, wouldn't see why not! Especially since you're not going all the way to getting them overhead with the half jerk...
 
Sometimes I think this forum reads my mind. I’ve been drilling these on my off days. All of this is gold, my form check vids will be coming soon!
 
Excellent above info. Will add a couple quick points.
Use a bit less of the clock with your upper body on drop, load the glutes more, a bit less forward knee movement.
Hard punch with first drive, arms fully extended, drop under with more speed, cat quick.
 
Excellent above info. Will add a couple quick points.
Use a bit less of the clock with your upper body on drop, load the glutes more, a bit less forward knee movement.
Hard punch with first drive, arms fully extended, drop under with more speed, cat quick.
Ahhh... the value of trainee-tailored one-to-one instruction. Even an advanced student (OP) can be challenged by the proper rapid-fire and nuance settings on the instruction dials.
 
Ahhh... the value of trainee-tailored one-to-one instruction. Even an advanced student (OP) can be challenged by the proper rapid-fire and nuance settings on the instruction dials.

Exactly what I need right now with my barbell jerks! My coach gives me excellent feedback but it's remote, so I get one correction (or set of corrections) per session, instead of set or rep. One-on-one in real time really is the best way.

The next best thing is, if you don't have a coach there with you, video yourself and watch between sets to see what you see and can correct with your own cues. But this can be problematic if you're internally focused. A whole different and interesting topic in itself...
 
Exactly what I need right now with my barbell jerks! My coach gives me excellent feedback but it's remote, so I get one correction (or set of corrections) per session, instead of set or rep. One-on-one in real time really is the best way.

The next best thing is, if you don't have a coach there with you, video yourself and watch between sets to see what you see and can correct with your own cues. But this can be problematic if you're internally focused. A whole different and interesting topic in itself...

Lucky for me, there's an SFG instructor nearby here in Boulder CO. She's licensed in both kettlebells and barbells. Haven't contacted her yet though. Waiting till my daughter is off to college this summer so I could "misappropriate" the private viola/piano lessons' budget.
 
The next best thing is, if you don't have a coach there with you, video yourself and watch between sets to see what you see and can correct with your own cues. But this can be problematic if you're internally focused. A whole different and interesting topic in itself...
I do this all the time between sets (also helps with the timing if I get impatient, since videos are almost always 1 min). I almost always have an idea of what it should look like, and can pretty much always spot what doesn't look right.
 
I do this all the time between sets (also helps with the timing if I get impatient, since videos are almost always 1 min). I almost always have an idea of what it should look like, and can pretty much always spot what doesn't look right.

Or do a virtual session. Either way, you learn something and get better
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom