Other/Mixed Martial Arts without burnout?

[kiwipete]

I went and tried a Japanese Ju Jitsu class last week. I've dabbled in aikido, boxing and judo in the past without finding an art that felt 'like me' and thought this was worth a go.

I completely under-estimated how sore and grumpy it would make me for 4 days afterward...

Paraphrasing , my wife said, "You are not doing it again because I'm not living with you being so grumpy and tired".

My 20 year old brain did not appreciate it was working in a 40 year old body!

Does anyone have advice about how to train MA's in a way that doesn't destroy you?

The JJJ session was pretty much 30min of push ups, jumping squats, crunches ad nauseam - then ground fighting and self defence techniques for the next hour.

I was extremely restrained, tapping often and early. Ego was very much left at home - nothing to prove (literally ha ha)

I think the body weight stuff combined with the ground fighting just destroyed any recovery capacity I have last week.

I'm disciplined with going to bed early, eating good food and looking after myself.

I love moving my body but I can't see that type of training being sustainable over the long term - especially if it leaves me no energy to be happy to be around nor able / willing to do easy strength and easy running each week (which I love BTW).

Has anyone else had this 'recovery challenge' from MA training? And if so, what ways did you go about solving it?

Change schools? Change MA? Other ideas? Appreciate your experience and ideas ?

 

[superendurance]

I can relate, martial arts are hard on the body. Which martial art you choose is going to depend on your goals. The internal ones are of course more restorative, but less useful for actual combat. Of all the "combat oriented" martial arts (wrestling, boxing, etc.), brazilian jiu jitsu is probably the one that's easiest on the body. You don't get whacked in the head, you don't get thrown as often but you still learn to subdue a fully resisting opponent.
That being said, actual sparring is still going to put a toll on you. If you have the chance, I would recommend trying out as many schools as you can and find the one you vibe with.

Here are some criteria I would look for:
* no excessive warm ups. Doing what's basically a crossfit class is a no go. Warm ups should be super basic stuff to get the blood flowing and joints lubricated, and then it's on to technical training
* emphasis on technique. The instructor should emphasize technical solutions to problems, not physical ones. Of course strength matters, weight matters, but I didn't get into martial arts to learn how to beat up people smaller and weaker than me
* lots of specific sparring, so you get a chance to attempt the techniques you learned in class

As you get more experienced, you are going to get more efficient and not expend as much energy. A great way to get better without beating yourself up is to find a drilling partner. Befriend someone and go to open mats and start practicing on each other.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[offwidth]

As @superendurance was alluding to there is quite a spectrum of things that falls under the term ‘martial arts’. Some are indeed very hard, whilst others very soft.
You need to ask yourself what you want to study a martial art for. What are you trying to get out of it? And you need to ask also what you are willing to invest into it. (In terms of dedication to practice and how long you need to train to achieve any level of proficiency) And closely related... how proficient do you want to get?

They all have merit in one way or another.

 

[Steve Freides]

Does anyone have advice about how to train MA's in a way that doesn't destroy you?

It seems reasonable that you’d need time to adapt.

-S-

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Jiu jitsu is the hardest thing you’ll ever do...for a couple weeks. You will get used to it quickly, just go easy and do what you can. I promise it gets much easier and soon you not only learn to move your body better but you’ll be more efficient and not get as beat up.

 

[6was9]

According to the modern scientific data technical side of training should be addressed first, then strength, then endurance. In this view traditional martial arts often have it backwards: warm up is turned into a circuit, and by the end of it you are pretty fried.

I don't have any experience with JJJ, but if it has similarities with BJJ then give it time. In BJJ it takes at least three months to start becoming more efficient and not to get exhausted. So just hang in there, it should get easier. It's not easy to relax and breathe while some big dude is sitting on your chest and trying to tear your head off, but you will learn it.

 

[Hung]

Aren't many dojos have Strongfirst's influence? Why don't contact the martial art teachers who also Strongfirst instruction for more detail? I'm sure they will help you a lot.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

1) to regenerate, you need to sweat. Check out Tempo Intervals. I've been doing them for almost 6 months, they improved both a) how I recover after heavy training sessions b) how much I can handle during a training session (aerobic system working behind the scenes)
2) If you do kettlebell strength training schedule it on the same day as your martial art practice, so the next day you can do a light Tempo Intervals session. I found it to be better to have one heavy day and one light day than medium days all the time.

Good luck!

 

[BennyWalks]

brazilian jiu jitsu is probably the one that's easiest on the body.

I don't understand this claim. BJJ is popular in my area and everyone I've spoken to who does it is constantly nursing one injury or another. One lad told me it's never the same people at class week in, week out, because people are always off injured. I've also noted that BJJ is very popular with celebrities etc (eg Joe Rogan and his friends), and listening to them talk about it, it's clear that their access to cutting edge medical interventions is a necessity for their continued participation.

Surely if one is not competing, boxing is easier on the body from the neck down (assuming precautions eg lots of barbell rows to counter out all the punching), and can be relatively easy on the head / brain if headgear is worn and sparring is kept very light??? Competition boxing is a whole different animal obviously.

 

[Steve Freides]

I don't understand this claim. BJJ is popular in my area and everyone who does it seems to be constantly nursing one injury or another.

Please don't extrapolate your "... seems to be ..." into a blanket negative statement about a sport practiced happily by many here.

Thank you.

-S-

 

[BennyWalks]

Please don't extrapolate your "... seems to be ..." into a blanket negative statement about a sport practiced happily by many here.

Thank you.

-S-

edited my langauge in the previous for more precision.

 

[Steve Freides]

edited my langauge in the previous for more precision.

Again, I believe you're assuming facts not in evidence. Maybe you have only been in contact with the students of a few bad teachers? Or maybe you've been only in contact with high-level, highly competitive athletes - injuries aren't totally unexpected there, but neither are they unexpected at the highest levels of most athletic pursuits, nor are they uncommon among those who don't know how to train in a way that can be recovered from regularly.

-S-

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Again, I believe you're assuming facts not in evidence. Maybe you have only been in contact with the students of a few bad teachers? Or maybe you've been only in contact with high-level, highly competitive athletes - injuries aren't totally unexpected there, but neither are they unexpected at the highest levels of most athletic pursuits, nor are they uncommon among those who don't know how to train in a way that can be recovered from regularly.

-S-

I think this touches on the most important aspect, and that is the personal responsibility of how hard and often to push yourself in training which leads to most injuries.

The potential for injury in BJJ is there, of course, just like any athletic endeavor. I think what people mean when they say it is safe, is that very few of the injuries people sustain come from the application of submissions. With responsible training partners, it is very difficult to get injured from applying the moves. Jiu Jitsu literally translates to "The Gentle Art" because the moves do NOT need to be done with force to be effective, hence why it can be a very safe martial art IF practiced in a safe way.

 

[superendurance]

I don't understand this claim. BJJ is popular in my area and everyone I've spoken to who does it is constantly nursing one injury or another. One lad told me it's never the same people at class week in, week out, because people are always off injured. I've also noted that BJJ is very popular with celebrities etc (eg Joe Rogan and his friends), and listening to them talk about it, it's clear that their access to cutting edge medical interventions is a necessity for their continued participation.

Surely if one is not competing, boxing is easier on the body from the neck down (assuming precautions eg lots of barbell rows to counter out all the punching), and can be relatively easy on the head / brain if headgear is worn and sparring is kept very light??? Competition boxing is a whole different animal obviously.

I would argue that a lot of people get injured training jiu jitsu precisely because its inherent safety allows them to train much harder for much longer than they should. Allow me to elaborate.

In my experience, the average BJJ practitioner gets hurt because
a) they are ill-prepared for the demands of the sport
b) they aren't training in an intelligent fashion

A lot of folks don't do any general physical preparation whatsoever. Something basic like S&S twice a week would make them much less susceptible to injury. Note that in your post you assumed the person training in boxing is doing exercises to balance out his shoulder girdle, so you would have to grant the hypothetical bjj practitioner the same to make a fair comparison.

Point b) is probably the more important one, though. The average bjj guy trains pretty damn hard. It's not uncommon for a hobbyist to roll hard for 5+ rounds for 5 or more days a week. If you were to train boxing with the same intensity, you would literally get concussed on a weekly basis. Conversely, if you trained BJJ at the same intensity as your hypothetical boxer ("very light sparring"), I don't see how you would ever get injured apart from some freak accident.

Like @BJJ Shawn wrote, being aware of your limits is a matter of personal responsibility.

For the record, I'm not saying one is better than the other, or that boxing can't be trained safely, or that injuries don't happen in jiu jitsu. But the claim that jiu jitsu is inherently less safe than boxing is simply not true.

 

[kiwipete]

I can relate, martial arts are hard on the body. Which martial art you choose is going to depend on your goals. The internal ones are of course more restorative, but less useful for actual combat. Of all the "combat oriented" martial arts (wrestling, boxing, etc.), brazilian jiu jitsu is probably the one that's easiest on the body. You don't get whacked in the head, you don't get thrown as often but you still learn to subdue a fully resisting opponent.
That being said, actual sparring is still going to put a toll on you. If you have the chance, I would recommend trying out as many schools as you can and find the one you vibe with.

Here are some criteria I would look for:
* no excessive warm ups. Doing what's basically a crossfit class is a no go. Warm ups should be super basic stuff to get the blood flowing and joints lubricated, and then it's on to technical training
* emphasis on technique. The instructor should emphasize technical solutions to problems, not physical ones. Of course strength matters, weight matters, but I didn't get into martial arts to learn how to beat up people smaller and weaker than me
* lots of specific sparring, so you get a chance to attempt the techniques you learned in class

As you get more experienced, you are going to get more efficient and not expend as much energy. A great way to get better without beating yourself up is to find a drilling partner. Befriend someone and go to open mats and start practicing on each other.

Just my 2 cents.

@superendurance - Thank you - your points make perfect sense. I'll try some other clubs and see which ones have this approach.

I really like your idea of finding a drilling partner - for me that would be a game changer. Learning without every session being too much.

 

[kiwipete]

According to the modern scientific data technical side of training should be addressed first, then strength, then endurance. In this view traditional martial arts often have it backwards: warm up is turned into a circuit, and by the end of it you are pretty fried.

I don't have any experience with JJJ, but if it has similarities with BJJ then give it time. In BJJ it takes at least three months to start becoming more efficient and not to get exhausted. So just hang in there, it should get easier. It's not easy to relax and breathe while some big dude is sitting on your chest and trying to tear your head off, but you will learn it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. In a 'typical' MA class you end up fatigued BEFORE you actually learn technique... can't understand the benefits of that for anyone except someone already proficient... but maybe that's a tradition that needs challenging??

From the judo I've done before I feel calm doing ne-waza and if I get in a position that would require heaps of energy to get out of (if at all) I just tap.

I guess I find it hard to understand why I was so 'wasted' after one session and when the wife says, "You're not going to that club again" I listen because we have to live together (in harmony) ha ha and quite frankly she's wiser than me ?

 

[BennyWalks]

Thankyou all for your enlightening perspective re. BJJ and injury. Very interesting.

On reflection I do probably know a skewed sample. These lads are weirdly obsessed with violence...they are bouncers etc, and whenever they come round my house all they talk about is the latest fight they've been in etc. I'm beginning to think they may be unhinged.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. In a 'typical' MA class you end up fatigued BEFORE you actually learn technique... can't understand the benefits of that for anyone except someone already proficient... but maybe that's a tradition that needs challenging??

I used to train for the street, and the philosophy of one of the lads who took the class was that if you're knackered before sparring etc starts, it functions as a useful stressor. We know from Craig Weller and others that this may be useful from time to time, but is not the best approach to learning a skill. Plus it was incredibly annoying.

From a commercial standpoint, absolutely knackering people who aren't aware of modern exercise science impresses them, they go home sore as f*** and think 'I've got a good workout, I've had value for my money.'

I like the approach of the Cuban boxers who are so ego free that they can do boxing sparring on concrete when they keep it light.

 

[6was9]

1) to regenerate, you need to sweat. Check out Tempo Intervals. I've been doing them for almost 6 months, they improved both a) how I recover after heavy training sessions b) how much I can handle during a training session (aerobic system working behind the scenes)
2) If you do kettlebell strength training schedule it on the same day as your martial art practice, so the next day you can do a light Tempo Intervals session. I found it to be better to have one heavy day and one light day than medium days all the time.

Good luck!

Every BJJ roll is a tempo interval for this guy at this stage. If anything he needs light long slow aerobics, mostly for recovery, though I would advice even against that. When you end up at the bottom of a position in wrestling natural - and wrong - reaction is to push the other guy off you. For the first few months he has to learn different ways of reacting to the load, learn to breathe, frame, relax at the bottom etc.

 

[6was9]

I don't understand this claim. BJJ is popular in my area and everyone I've spoken to who does it is constantly nursing one injury or another. One lad told me it's never the same people at class week in, week out, because people are always off injured. I've also noted that BJJ is very popular with celebrities etc (eg Joe Rogan and his friends), and listening to them talk about it, it's clear that their access to cutting edge medical interventions is a necessity for their continued participation.

BJJ is the easiest on the body for one reason: you choose when to tap out. Something that doesn't exist in striking martial arts or stand up game. You cant stop a punch an inch from your face and say "ok, you got me with this one". You cannot stop the throw midway in the air. In BJJ you can tap as soon as you feel getting close to being hurt, and it is you who decides what that "close" is. Besides, there isn't much point of not tapping early, except in competition.

Having said that I believe some trauma is inevitable in sport, be it lifting or martial arts. The trick is to avoid getting injured badly and learning to adjust training to your current condition.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

I have a similar experiment with karate. I really like the technical work, the body control and the mental focus... but I have come to dislike the burn-out nature of it. One of the things I've found was that when I was going more frequently (2-3 times a week), it got used to it. But when life got more complicated and I only had time to go once a week, it was a lot harder to acclimate.

I do think with time you can adjust - but I also think it's a lot easier to adjust when you make that "your sport", and that becomes your primary focus (i.e. other training takes a back seat). I suspect that training to fight really means your training is a fight. And if that doesn't work for you, probably want to look for something not combat-oriented. I don't know if there are any "kata-focused" schools out there.