Kettlebell My S&S Swing and heartrate

[Bill Been]

All the best to you, Al.

And I will butt out of S&S threads. Unfortunately, everything becomes an S&S thread.

 

[ali]

Did I miss anything?

Al a wonderful explanation. Can I respectfully ask that this post is archived somewhere, somehow, to refer to when the energy and science question is raised again? As it will be, ha ha. It is a masterpiece and thank you for taking your time to succinctly state some complex issues that, hopefully, will make it easier for all to gain a greater understanding.

 

[simon0596]

Pursuant to the endless HIIT, there may be the case or Ryan Shay. Ryan was an elite marathoner. Known for always training hard. Known as a guy who essentially vowed never to go over 6:00/mile in training. He collapsed and died at mile 4 of the 2008 Olympic trials. I suspect this is what Pavel was talking about. New York Times

When Pavel brought the autopsy reports, I immediately thought of Shay.

“Patchy fibrosis means something in the past injured the heart. Usually a viral infection leads to the death of some cells, and when heart cells die, they’re replaced by fibrotic tissue, which is tough, stringy stuff. These tough scars can set up abnormal electrical currents. If normal conductivity gets blocked, it can result in fast abnormal rhythms and a person can die.”

Ryan had been shown to have an enlarged heart at age 14...but by then I'm pretty sure he was already running, as he won every HS meet from his 3rd as a freshman on

 

[BladesFanUK]

Is exercise-induced chronic lactic acidosis really a thing?? I'm not so sure. Unless someone has a health defect the acid-base balance should be completely restored rapidly after exercise. It is a fairly extreme symptom. I don't see how frequency of high-intensity exercise influences this. Would be happy to be proven wrong though.

Here is a recent review paper on lactic acidosis if anyone is interested.
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/5z25r8s8

 

[Steve Freides]

Is that medium intensity, medium high, low medium, medium low, f*** knows.

Al a wonderful explanation. Can I respectfully ask that this post is archived somewhere, somehow, to refer to when the energy and science question is raised again? As it will be, ha ha. It is a masterpiece and thank you for taking your time to succinctly state some complex issues that, hopefully, will make it easier for all to gain a greater understanding.

Ali, you don't necessarily need to have this post archived in order to find it easily - please permit a short digression on using the forum.

You may "Watch" this thread. If you do, you will receive notification of new replies posted to it.

Here's a really good one - you can click View while you're looking at the forum and it will sort all the messages by the number of views, which will place this one near the top. You can do the same with Replies, which will also place this one near the top.

-S-

 

[simon0596]

Lastly, and then I SWEAR I'll shut up.

Al, you described the initial response of the noob to HITT-type experience, whereupon they make big gains for a while. Ought everyone able to handle it be given that out of the block and then have adjustments later?

 

[Pnigro]

You may ignore it and continue to quote your "book", or you can progress. (Why am I starting to feel like this is a science v. religion debate?)

I'm just saying those 2 paragraphs I quoted are a source of much confusion regarding rest periods.

And since this thread talks about S&S, and the program comes from the book, I think it's only logical to quote said book.

 

[Brett Jones]

Pnigro
There isn't "one" answer. There are many ways to go about this.
Pavel's advice in the book and subsequent advice to have longer rest periods but test where you are occasionally and some of the strategies suggested here are just options.
Try them and/or rotate them through a weekly (or whatever) training plan.

to everyone
None of this is worth getting emotional about - we are simply talking about KB swings and different strategies toward accomplishing a goal

Take a deep breath and relax

 

[Steve Freides]

None of this is worth getting emotional about - we are simply talking about KB swings and different strategies toward accomplishing a goal

Take a deep breath and relax

Thank you, Brett.

I have been enjoying reading this one.

-S-

 

[Harald Motz]

while there was some raving around I had another menu of goblets, haloes, swings, getups. I used the beast, and I am recharged to share my impressions.
If I only had the book maybe I would grit my teeth to dust on some iron bells. By now, at least the people who look up the forum, are well informed, in my opinion, how to practice "best".

S&S is not gospel.

that means it is not written in stone, like the many scientific research (and for me it is mostly good to confirm a bias). In S&S and all of Mr. Pavel Tsatsouline's work it is about principles , and principles are written in stone, because they are extracted by experience (of man and women from hundred thousand years and present) and have validity to all of us (I think). Detect or ask about the principles (and being part of the forum makes learning much more faster. I am actually sitting in the classroom of the school of strength) and act accordingly and then, the probability is very high that one reaps great benefits.

Today I did my swings 5reps x 20 s. Is that S&S anymore? No, no, book says 10r x 10s. But wait 5x20=10X10 and that is written in stone. Surprisingly the swing session took 6 to 7 minutes longer than the average of my last 10 swing sessions (I started when hr dropping to 100, as the others), maybe more power output on each rep, is my guess.

But to make it short: to recover well after each sets gives many benefits. Directly on the following set: each and every rep is more hardstyle and strong. And when this happens rep for rep, set for set, session for session, weeks, months years, there seems to be some accumulation here, and not for the bad, but maybe I am wrong. That can only time and experience (I make for myself) show...And yes it is a journey. And I am sure that I will add something in the future to:" simple and sinister builds beyond belief!"
And that is a story about the program, and I the "practicer". And for now, this approach feels more than right. And apart from that I would say:"Shut up and Get Up!" (to the emotional emotions).

 

[Paul_Jay]

If I could bring the discussion back to a more practical level, I adjusted how I practiced my swings for the past 4 weeks by using a HRM and aiming for predominantly aerobic work, but got results similar to the original poster. At the start of my swings my HR would be about 120 BPM or less and would spike up to the high 150's by the end of each set. Between sets I'd wait for about a minute (15 or so slow controlled breaths) until my HR came back down to the 120 range which nicely corresponded to being able to pass the talk test. I assumed/hoped over the course of a few weeks I'd be able to take less time to recover between sets and/or my HR wouldn't peak so high, but it hasn't really improved much in either respect. I've felt fine during each practice with nice strong swings, so I felt sure I was recovering well, and had no problem practicing this way basically daily, but reading through this thread I realize I was letting my HR peak too high. By the formula 180 - age + 5, based on my age, I should be targeting 142 BPM max. So for my last practice I cut the number of reps down to 7 per set and did all 10 sets. This time my HR never peaked above 142, even after the last set (was pretty consistent for all sets - at or just below the target HR), and between sets it would take about 10 controlled breaths for my HR to come back down to the 110 range. So it looks like this is a better way to practice if I want to stay aerobic for my swings. Now my question: how do I know when I should start adding reps back into my sets - ie: go from 7 per set, to 8 per set, etc. until I'm back up to 10 per set? What should I be looking for? Do I keep going with a give number of reps per set until my peak HR is consistently say 5 BPM lower than the max target and then add a rep? OR practice until my recovery time is significantly shorter between sets? Or some combination of both?

 

[beephsupreme]

Paul, I would trust my body before I put so much confidence in a formula. You mentioned you felt fine, and that you felt good-to-go for the next set. I'd trust that more than a formula. Perhaps let your HR drop to 110 or 100 before the next set if you are worried.

Disclaimer: I can't even spell mitochondria. Whatever that is.

 

[Abdul-Rasheed]

@Paul_Jay some of your questions are answered by @aciampa in the first page of this thread.

 

[Anna C]

Really appreciate this thread and every contribution. Al, thanks for clearing the fog with that last post. That definitely helps, from my perspective, anyway.

I tried S&S with the 24kg within the time limits today; I have hit it before, but it's been a while as I've been working on other things. Have recently been doing S&S with 28kg with plenty of recovery, so tried today with 24kg. Well I was quickly reminded that 10x10 swings in 5 minutes is a VERY different experience than 10x10 in 10 minutes or more. I think I made 6 minutes, not sure until I check my Garmin data, and it was HARD. I think it's necessary to push the envelope every now and then in order to make progress towards being able to do that. I not saying anything new here; I think most everyone agrees to push it to high intensity session on this program at least once every week or two unless contraindicated for some reason. The "non-stop swings" prescribed every 2 weeks in S&S also do this. I'm making this point because I suspect that there are people out there "doing S&S" that have NEVER done the non-stop swings, and have NEVER attempted to do 10x10 in 5 minutes. I believe this will limit your progress. You could do aerobic swings for months, and your swings will get better, but you won't get to the 10x10 in 5-minutes. With that said, relative health applies, etc... just my 2 cents.

Paul_Jay, I don't have an answer to your question, but your HR and description does sound about right. I would guess "some combination of both". (And I'm "ATK" too )

 

[Pnigro]

I tried S&S with the 24kg within the time limits today; I have hit it before, but it's been a while as I've been working on other things. Have recently been doing S&S with 28kg with plenty of recovery, so tried today with 24kg. Well I was quickly reminded that 10x10 swings in 5 minutes is a VERY different experience than 10x10 in 10 minutes or more. I think I made 6 minutes, not sure until I check my Garmin data, and it was HARD. I think it's necessary to push the envelope every now and then in order to make progress towards being able to do that. I not saying anything new here; I think most everyone agrees to push it to high intensity session on this program at least once every week or two unless contraindicated for some reason. The "non-stop swings" prescribed every 2 weeks in S&S also do this. I'm making this point because I suspect that there are people out there "doing S&S" that have NEVER done the non-stop swings, and have NEVER attempted to do 10x10 in 5 minutes. I believe this will limit your progress. You could do aerobic swings for months, and your swings will get better, but you won't get to the 10x10 in 5-minutes. With that said, relative health applies, etc... just my 2 cents.

Love love love this post.

I did "aerobic swings" for months with the 24kg and never got to the 5 minute mark, even if I decided to push myself and test it (I was close though).

Decided to move up to 32kg anyway because I noticed diminishing results.

Once I feel comfortable with the 32kg I'll start to gradually reduce rest periods with the goal of achieving the simple goal and eventually do something different than S&S.

I love the program, but I don't want to spend 2 years on it.

 

[Abdul-Rasheed]

@Pnigro when you started using 32kg, did you start with 2-handed, and then switching to 1-handed? or was it all 1-handed from the beginning?

 

[Al Ciampa]

Now my question: how do I know when I should start adding reps back into my sets - ie: go from 7 per set, to 8 per set, etc. until I'm back up to 10 per set? What should I be looking for? Do I keep going with a give number of reps per set until my peak HR is consistently say 5 BPM lower than the max target and then add a rep? OR practice until my recovery time is significantly shorter between sets? Or some combination of both?

Paul, if you are willing, I can make an example of your case on how to do this properly. Note that "you are willing" means you will stick to the program unless life, limb, or eyesight, and you will chart your progress here (or in another thread... @Steve Freides .. maybe we can start a stickie for this?). I will comment as close to daily as possible. This might clear up some of the fog here, and hold as an example of how to incorporate HR training into (almost) daily swing sessions. It can be an open book training log, of sorts. Thoughts?

 

[Al Ciampa]

I did "aerobic swings" for months with the 24kg and never got to the 5 minute mark, even if I decided to push myself and test it (I was close though).

Can you expand on this? What did your longer term progression look like? How many months?

 

[Pavel]

Ladies and gents, please be civil and do not let this interesting thread deteriorate.

There is a number of people on this thread with knowledge of biochemistry; their opinions are welcome. If you are not one of these people (and reading a couple of hand picked studies about HIIT does not qualify), please obstain from expressing opinions and limit yourself to reading and asking respectful questions.

I will attempt to summarize so we can continue.

1. As Richard Feynman said, there is no total certainty in science; only degrees of uncertainty. In the field as mind numbingly complex as muscle cell biochemistry, the degree of uncertainty will remain high for a long time. So there is no last word.

2. There are two ways to progress athletic training knowledge: empirically and through the use of biological sciences. History shows that there have been a number of highly successful methodologies that were almost totally empirical—such as the Soviet weightlifting methodology. Usually a combination brings best results.

3. One has to take the results of brief studies on untrained subjects with a grain of salt. (And many HIIT studies are in that category.)

4. Oftentimes there is more than one way to get the job done due to the complexity of the human body and the multitude of possible stimuli and responses.

5. Sometimes methods delivering similar results can be diametrically opposite. E.g., one can train to run 800m by maximizing his glycolytic power and capacity—or by finding ways to delay maximal deployment of glycolysis.

In practical terms, when we are training to develop general endurance and WTHE with kettlebell quick lifts and stay healthy:

I. Glycolytic training pros and cons.

Pros:

* Promotes muscle building and fat loss through an endocrine response and muscle building through local effects of lactic acid.

* Can be used for peaking in some events.

Cons:

* Since glycolytic training is very stressful, it easily promotes basedowic overtraining if one is not careful in planning training and all aspects of one's life.

* For the same reason—intense production of stress hormones—one must be careful with glycolysis in the same manner one must be careful with the effects of excess stress on health.

* There is evidence that when acidosis is high, some mitochondria get destroyed (they literally fill up with water and blow up as they cannot keep up with buffering H+). Yes, there is a number of studies demonstrating that—in Russian. (And no, a few studies demonstrating mitochondrial biogenesis in newbies from HIIT do not cancel them out.)

* There is some evidence that the H+ and other electrically charged particles produced as a result of anaerobic glycolysis may damage other tissues—but the research is inconclusive. There is damage on one hand and a possible need for some oxidative stress to stimulate adaptation on the other (the hormetic effect).

* Glycolysis in the heart (sustained and repeated HR >190) does damage the heart. (Although there is no evidence that in healthy people high heart rates elevated for brief periods of time, e.g. a hard sprint or a set of snatches, are dangerous, you should trust your cardiologist's recommendations on high how and how long you can push yours.)

* Soreness and fatigue. Not a problem if you ride a desk; a life or death problem for some professions.

In other words, glycolysis is a strong medicine with possible side effects and one must take it in moderation.

Recommendations on how to do it: http://www.strongfirst.com/long-rests/

II. Anti-glycolytic training.

Researched and experimented with in the USSR since the 1980s, AGT culminated with superb results on a number of Russian national teams in diverse sports in this century.

Original AGT work was aimed at minimizing glycolysis by maximizing the CP pathway and aerobic recovery. Later work was aimed at developing mitochondria in intermediate and fast fibers. The conditions for mitochondrial biogenesis: a fiber must spend a lot of total time in a mild acidosis. Hence traditional interval and circuit training are modified to stop the sets at the onset of mild local fatigue and to increase the rest periods to maintain the average session intensity at right below the AnT—hence the relevant HR discussions on this forum.

AGT develops exceptional endurance at a very low biological cost, with minimal fatigue and soreness.

AGT comes with WTHE—fat loss, power improvement, and some muscle hypertrophy. And the aerobic adaptations improves one's overall health (plenty of research on that).

Glycolytic and anti-glycolytic training can be periodized, but that is another conversation.

 

[Paul_Jay]

Paul, if you are willing, I can make an example of your case on how to do this properly. Note that "you are willing" means you will stick to the program unless life, limb, or eyesight, and you will chart your progress here (or in another thread... @Steve Freides .. maybe we can start a stickie for this?). I will comment as close to daily as possible. This might clear up some of the fog here, and hold as an example of how to incorporate HR training into (almost) daily swing sessions. It can be an open book training log, of sorts. Thoughts?

Hi Al,

Not what I was expecting, but it's an interesting idea and I'd be glad to take you up on the generous offer. I'll send you a PM to work out the details.