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Kettlebell Anyone doing only S&S program? Benefits over time?

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I'm on my 19th month of S&S. I achieved Timed Simple in June, Timeless Sinister a month ago, and I just started incorporating 56kg swings into my practice. Things I've noticed: my grip is much stronger, my hips are more powerful, my baseline conditioning is much better, and my "less strong" shoulder has improved drastically.

I really like the minimalistic aspect of the program. I'm always crazy busy and a lot is required of me mentally. Not needing to put any mental effort into programming is awesome for me.
 
I've never tried TGU, and I've never been involved in such exercises. I have serious doubts that I might not be able to do a TGU even with my light KB18, but I'll try.
Do the get ups “naked” at first. Naked = without weight not without clothes. Then Practice with a shoe on your fist. Then use a light kettlebell.

I used S&S (simple and sinister) for a couple years to get back into some semblance of shape after getting skinny fat from some years of exercise. It was good, but I needed a change/variety. I had nice body composition changes and built some muscle which allowed me to do things like the Giant or some other programs.
 
I’m my mind, the timed aspect is a big piece of the challenge, and there is a big difference between timeless Simple and timed Simple in terms of fitness level you would need.
I was thinking about this during my morning practice. It seems every so often you see complaints about the difficulty moving up or the lack of progress from "timeless". I feel compressing the time really enables the building of muscular endurance to do the jumps in weights.

I had significant time doing calisthenics before S+S but after 6 months owning the 32kg and when the gym got new kettlebells, I ran a ladder of getups from 4-44kg (the max) with little trouble. I feel if I'd done simple timeless, I may have been technically competent, but not as strong.
 
In 17 months I went from 16kg to 40kg timeless. Although I started with the 16kg, I could almost do "Timed" with the 24kg. I started lighter to make sure I understood the program and had a solid foundation to build on. My jump in weight was the traditional 8KG jumps, so 16, 24, 32, 40.
Besides S&S I do various martial arts 5-6 days per week. S&S was in the morning 6 days/week until I hit the 32kg. But going from 32 to 40 I dropped down to 4 days of S&S per week. I would say that S&S helped me get strong and more resilient for my martial arts practice and fight competitions. Also, when going from the 32 to the 40 I reached out to Louka Kurcer for technique corrections. Although the tweaks he made in me were "minor", they were crucial for me to move up... (I love experts, he's a SFG2 Team Leader)

I would not attribute body composition changes to S&S. It had more to do with my actual diet. I didn't gain much in the way of muscle, maybe 2-3 lbs? But I did cut quite a bit of fat.

Note: I lost all of it due to Covid, just walking 5 minutes would almost kill me. I'm rebuilding back to that 40kg goal but using other programs in between each jump. It'll slow down the progress to the 40kg goal, but I'm OK with that for now.
 
Simple is a great foundation. Everyone would benefit from making it a baseline of ability. It keeps things straightforward, get’s you more aware of your body, and can be very meditative. Going beyond that becomes a matter of what you like or are interested in. A basic barbell program of squats, dead lifts, bench press (toss in pull ups) will get you stronger and more efficiently.

I have to mention that alternating S&S days with easy aerobic work like light jogging, walking, rucking etc… is a good idea. It will complement your S&S training and enhance your aerobic base.
 
Simple is a great foundation
I noticed this in my experience with getting to simple. I felt a tiny bit stronger and more conditioned, but when I switched back to barbell I was able to progress pretty quickly, even breaking some old PRs from my 20s after 6 months back. Likewise my conditioning days were able to be pushed harder and I progressed pretty quickly on them as well.
I have to mention that alternating S&S days with easy aerobic work like light jogging, walking, rucking etc… is a good idea. It will complement your S&S training and enhance your aerobic base.
My last aerobic base building block I did was essentially this. It worked pretty well. I'd recommend it.
 
Simple is a great foundation. Everyone would benefit from making it a baseline of ability. It keeps things straightforward, get’s you more aware of your body, and can be very meditative. Going beyond that becomes a matter of what you like or are interested in. A basic barbell program of squats, dead lifts, bench press (toss in pull ups) will get you stronger and more efficiently.

I have to mention that alternating S&S days with easy aerobic work like light jogging, walking, rucking etc… is a good idea. It will complement your S&S training and enhance your aerobic base.

It's fun to revisit S&S after you've used other modalities for a while, too.

My main seasonal modalities are weightlifting and rowing, but during de-load weeks (especially in the snowy winter where getting outside to hike is harder and I want a break from the erg), I'll revisit / retest Timeless / Timed Simple to see how I'm doing when I haven't practiced it for months.
 
For those folks who have achieved Timed Simple, done a few seasons (or years) with other stuff, and come back to the swings+TGU template, have you tried the KBSF iteration? If so, what are your thoughts on it instead of S&S?

I read Mike Torres’s article about it, which sparked the question. Does it alleviate the boredom problem? Did it do anything for you that S&S didn’t do (or not do something S&S did for you)?
 
For those folks who have achieved Timed Simple, done a few seasons (or years) with other stuff, and come back to the swings+TGU template, have you tried the KBSF iteration? If so, what are your thoughts on it instead of S&S?

I read Mike Torres’s article about it, which sparked the question. Does it alleviate the boredom problem? Did it do anything for you that S&S didn’t do (or not do something S&S did for you)?

I haven't tried it, but the written description of the programming (H/M/L, using different bell sizes, 3 day a week) is already more appealing to me than S&S.
 
Benefits for me include moving better, less pain, sneaky strength gains. Nothing earth-shattering, but definitely life-changing. More defined forearms and glutes. S&S is secretly breath and relaxation training. You practice and learn how to “relax” in tension, tense at the right moments in swings to produce easy, repeatable power, and how to calm down between sets. The whole thing is like a zen koan, and why so many people who try it still don’t get it, even some of the SF instructors. It is doing without doing. Everyone tries to make it “something,” and it really isn’t anything, which is exactly what most people need. Nothing. It’s not a workout nor exercise program, and it’s not a panacea to answer all questions, neither. It’s basic, repeatable practice, done when you can, in the space between beats. Don’t think in terms of time, just do it until it feels like nothing, and continue doing that. You don’t have to be a minimalist about it. Practice and have fun, you’ll naturally start practicing other kb moves and improve without “programming” them in. It’s great for someone who hates planning/programming.

Actually, I guess all of that is kind of earth-shattering, perhaps?

You didn’t ask, but just want to add that the secret of S&S is nothing. Do nothing.
That is an interesting take on this training.
" Everyone tries to make it “something,” and it really isn’t anything, which is exactly what most people need. Nothing."
 
It's fun to revisit S&S after you've used other modalities for a while, too.

My main seasonal modalities are weightlifting and rowing, but during de-load weeks (especially in the snowy winter where getting outside to hike is harder and I want a break from the erg), I'll revisit / retest Timeless / Timed Simple to see how I'm doing when I haven't practiced it for months.
Do you need a session or two just to re-familiarize yourself with the mechanics and patterning of the GU?
 
I haven't tried it, but the written description of the programming (H/M/L, using different bell sizes, 3 day a week) is already more appealing to me than S&S.
@Hector G 's Swing Strong program was what I used to train for Simple. Two bells, one was for power and one was for strength endurance.

I'll make this comment about his programming. Volume of GUs could get seriously high, enough so where it was broken out a two-a-day format here and there. Until doing that I realized that if you actually want to build strength with GUs, you'll need to amp up the volume.
 
Until doing that I realized that if you actually want to build strength with GUs, you'll need to amp up the volume.
For sure. My getups jumped drastically after doing KB Burn during a break from S&S.

I know outside of SF one of the main criticisms of S&S is the fixed volume. If you look at it as a program to get from A to Timed Simple, there are faster ways to get there for sure.
 
For those folks who have achieved Timed Simple, done a few seasons (or years) with other stuff, and come back to the swings+TGU template, have you tried the KBSF iteration? If so, what are your thoughts on it instead of S&S?

I read Mike Torres’s article about it, which sparked the question. Does it alleviate the boredom problem? Did it do anything for you that S&S didn’t do (or not do something S&S did for you)?
The program wasn't for me at all. At least not the swing+tgu "beginner" phase.

First, my primary activity is martial arts. I'm on the mats 6 days per week. My "AM workouts" must support those activities. This program took away my ability to recover. I got slower and felt weaker on the mats. One thing to keep in mind is that I cannot refuse to do the "warm ups" of the ma classes...

Why I think I had issues with KBSF: Swing sessions that have more than 150 reps per session are harder for me to recover from. TGU sessions of more than 40 minutes even on an easy day can be difficult to recover from. Doing the TGU session was always easy while in the middle of a session. But an accumulation of work you might not notice until you're in deep... An additional factor may be long term consequences of Covid.

Honestly, I much prefer the shorter sessions of S&S or Q&D. It only ever made me stronger, faster and more durable for my martial arts practices... I might come back to KBSF after I hit 48kg S&S Timeless. And even then, I might skip the Sw/TGU and go into the C+J portion...
 
The program wasn't for me at all. At least not the swing+tgu "beginner" phase.

First, my primary activity is martial arts. I'm on the mats 6 days per week. My "AM workouts" must support those activities. This program took away my ability to recover. I got slower and felt weaker on the mats. One thing to keep in mind is that I cannot refuse to do the "warm ups" of the ma classes...

Why I think I had issues with KBSF: Swing sessions that have more than 150 reps per session are harder for me to recover from. TGU sessions of more than 40 minutes even on an easy day can be difficult to recover from. Doing the TGU session was always easy while in the middle of a session. But an accumulation of work you might not notice until you're in deep... An additional factor may be long term consequences of Covid.

Honestly, I much prefer the shorter sessions of S&S or Q&D. It only ever made me stronger, faster and more durable for my martial arts practices... I might come back to KBSF after I hit 48kg S&S Timeless. And even then, I might skip the Sw/TGU and go into the C+J portion...
How light did you go with KBSF? The swing sessions are auto-regulated in KBSF. You stop when you feel like power output has dropped or fail talk test. Did you follow this?

I am on the mats 5 times a week and regularly competing and found KBSF to the perfect companion.

Might I point to some one like @Mike Torres article where even he went as low at 20kg Turkish get ups i believe.
 
For those folks who have achieved Timed Simple, done a few seasons (or years) with other stuff, and come back to the swings+TGU template, have you tried the KBSF iteration? If so, what are your thoughts on it instead of S&S?

I read Mike Torres’s article about it, which sparked the question. Does it alleviate the boredom problem? Did it do anything for you that S&S didn’t do (or not do something S&S did for you)?
Yes I did for me as BJJ practitioner.

1. Long periods of Turkish get ups are by far as close as you will get in the weight room to SPP for BJJ.
2. The format moves towards an A+A style programming with 1:4-5 work to rest ratio which means that you are looking to essentially using explosive power for short periods and then aerobically recover. Perfect for my sport. Trying to wrestle is essentially above.
3. Boredom - I didn't get bored because I did it with friends and we talked etc in between.
4. Shoulder health - AMAZING. I have surgery on my shoulders 3 years ago from Rugby and has never felt better.
5. Recovery went through the roof. I felt that the same intensity rolls didn't tax me as much (This could be also my tech improving but it was too short of time)
 
How light did you go with KBSF? The swing sessions are auto-regulated in KBSF. You stop when you feel like power output has dropped or fail talk test. Did you follow this?

I am on the mats 5 times a week and regularly competing and found KBSF to the perfect companion.

Might I point to some one like @Mike Torres article where even he went as low at 20kg Turkish get ups i believe.
Yes, I waved the load with heavy/medium/light days. I can do Timeless Sinister and was doing 20kg TGU on my light day. I also increased the volume of the swings very slowly (adding on average 1 minute every week or so).

Article in question: Minimalist Kettlebell Training for Maximal Returns in BJJ | StrongFirst
 
How light did you go with KBSF? The swing sessions are auto-regulated in KBSF. You stop when you feel like power output has dropped or fail talk test. Did you follow this?

I am on the mats 5 times a week and regularly competing and found KBSF to the perfect companion.

Might I point to some one like @Mike Torres article where even he went as low at 20kg Turkish get ups i believe.
I've gone through the details with Mike and others a while back, so I'm not going to rehash here. Suffice to say that no one had any real advice to give me except to accept that not all programs work for everyone equally. I do very well with S&S and I do very well with Q&D. In fact I've done very well on most Pavel programs, just not that one...

Note the medical history I mentioned... Long Covid sufferer. I plan to test that theory one day (after I achieved certain other goals) by using Kenneth Jay's Viking Warrior Conditioning (15:15 MVO2 ) to compare "now" to a historical pre-covid run of that program. And this is why you keep a training journal!

Seriously, why worry about what doesn't work? I have two programs that work wonders and I have room to grow inside them. A Timed Sinister is still going to make me a beast on the mats.
 
I followed S&S for over 2 years until I could do Timed Simple pretty much every day. Even though I never liked it all that much it fixed a lot of the problems I had, it pretty much did what the book said it would do and eventually it got me to where I wanted to be.

Benefits: You get a little bit of everything. Some strength, some endurance, some flexibility, some physical therapy, some improved coordination and balance. If you sit a lot like I do it undoes a lot of the damage caused by that. In my experience reaching Timed Simple (at least for men) fits Pavel description from the book pretty well: you will be fit enough to do most physical activities and recreational sports reasonably well. Pretty good for something you can do at home with little space and equipment.

Drawbacks: 2 exercises almost much every day at an intensity and volume that allows you to train every day was boring to me. And even though they train everything a little bit you will of course improve the most at swinging a KB for 100 reps and doing TGUs - things that have limited relevance in my daily life. Plus the time commitment was a bit too much for me to make the daily training feel like "brushing my teeth". How long it takes you depends on your level of fitness and how long you want to spend with the warmup and stretches. But my couch potato self took 10 minutes to do the warmup, 8-10 minutes for the swings, 10-15 minutes for the TGUs and another 10+ minutes for the 2 stretches. ~40 minutes 5-6 times a week isn't nothing as far as fitness programs go.
Your timing I correct.
For me: 10-15 min warmup and squats, 10 min swings, 15 min getups, 10 min stretching. Plus a shower after - don't forget that.
 
Hello,

For a while, I ran only S&S. Below is what I noticed, back then:
- It allowed me to run a 5k fairly easily without previous training (probably bad form, etc...)
- It permitted me to ruck effortlessly in the woods / moutains
- It transfered to 2x bdw DL
- It gave a drastic improvement in conditioning for everything "everyday life related" (chopping wood, lifting weird stuff, heavy DIY...)

That's not that bad for a two moves only routine. However, it can not replace a specific training. For instance, it will never allow you to do 30 pull ups (neither maintain this ability), or doing a pistol squat "from scratch", or can not replace a proper running training if you want to go longer than 10k. Funny enough, it seems "enough" to maintain or even increase rucking ability.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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