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Off-Topic Older Athletes: Anyone Use TRT or Peptides?

You mean 900-people are outliers ( > Q3 + 1.5 IQR), and we should not based our perceptions on those people?
It sounds reasonable to me, at least if testosterone level has normal distribution...
Yes! Interquartile range is like 300-500. half of the population is in this range. This tells me, 900 can be as rare as less than 1%. Assuming the distribution is normal. I know, mathematically what I say can be wrong, however as Galileo said my error of a few percentage will still be much less than the misinformative perception that is spread by calling a very top range of certain data pool.
 
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If you're a low responder, or just not putting in the work, they don't make miracles.
Responders

The majority of the population will obtain benefits. This is true will all medication, supplements and training.

With any group there is a small population of Non-Responders who will obtain a much lower response.

Super Responder get a dramation increase

"There ain't no free lunch."

As you noted, the key to maxing out your result (on them or not on them) is dependent on putting in the work on a well designed and written training program, diet, etc.

most of them either getting results or not, that I hear are using enormously high amounts
The Infamous "They"

Information on what you hear and "They" tell you has little merit.


One of the issues passing on information like this without some reference to substantiate it is a chronic problem that usually prepetuates misinformation being. '

Enormous High Amounts

This term is very vague.

There need to be a number assigned to identify what it is.

As per,,,

that's an exaggeration.
An Exaggeration

It is an exaggeration; no thinking to it.
I will not test my T levels if not required medically. This might sound very uneducated,
Uneducated

Yes, a lack of eduction in an area mean you are uneducated.

As the saying goes, "Knowledge is Power", "The more you know, the more you grow".

Based on your reponse on this (and another's same response on this site): why would either of you have an interest in having Blood Lipid Panel Test or having CAC, Coronary Artery Calcium measured?
 
I wouldn't worry at all about testosterone if it is within range. People have got great results with training with their levels right in the bottom range.

Symptoms are a different thing. They're the thing to look at, not the blood test per se.

If the testosterone is too low, I would first look at lifestyle factors, stress, alcohol, obesity, etc. They can be a massive factor. And they can take a long while to fix, like a year or two. Of course, no one wants to hear it. And most people want to take the quick fix. However, the things that.lower testosterone are typically the things that lower your life quality and expectance in general.
 
Based on your reponse on this (and another's same response on this site): why would either of you have an interest in having Blood Lipid Panel Test or having CAC, Coronary Artery Calcium measured?
Blood Lipid Panel is something that gets done at my physical every year. I didn't ask for it, and the doctor always wants to talk about it because my numbers are unusual - my total is considered higher than normal even though my ratio is excellent, and he has offered me the option of taking a statin to bring the total down. In declining I have explained my reasoning to him and he considers my choice acceptable.

CAC because heart disease can be hereditary. My father had a heart attack at age 46, so when I was that age, the doctor suggest this test, and I had it a second time 5 years ago, at age 63, for exactly the same reason. I suppose I'll wait until I'm 80 (63 - 46 = 17, and 63 + 17 = 80) to have it done again, God willing and the creeks don't rise, if my doctor is OK with that. As I age, my doctor has asked to have more tests done than he did previously, e.g., when I turned 65 he sent me to a cardiologist and I'd never seen a cardiologist before, so I went. (And it was all good news there.)

My doctor has never mentioned my testosterone levels to me, nor any of the other test results - there are 3 pages of them and I have no clue what most of them mean. But my PSA is high and I can tell you, having educated myself, lots about that - did you know that the word "digital" can be related to something other than computers? :) I'm also uneducated about my kidney and liver function, nuclear physics, and the Sikh religion. :) Time is precious and mine is limited. My testosterone result has always been one of many "within normal range" on my annual bloodwork and therefore I've given it no further thought.

-S-
 
I’m not connecting the dots between the war and TRT
I think purported fragility of current social/economic arrangements is the point here. If you believe that at some time in the future prescription drugs may not be as readily available in the US as they are right now, it would be smart not to make your functioning dependent on one of them.
I’ll have my T levels tested if/when I become symptomatic. The concept I will reach an (any) age where I might automatically begin taking it as a matter of course is absurd.

Symptoms > diagnosis > treatment
Also absurd is the concept that if there are some symptoms of malaise, all you need is to test the levels of a single hormone and then start supplementing it. As if there was no other cause of these common symptoms. As if there were no other hormones in the human body that may not be optimal. As if testosterone was an isolated substance that does not interact with any other and can be assessed in isolation.

For example, many of the symptoms bandied around as a justification for T"R"T are also associated with hypothyroidism, which is probably an order of magnitude more common that any actual deficiency in the ability to produce testosterone. Thyroid hormones also have far less possible side effects and can be discontinued much more easily. (Not that I suggest taking thyroid based on reading some short, vague list of symptoms either. But you get my point).

If I were some sort of medical practitioner, it would be obvious for me to have some sort of graduated protocol. Meaning, if a patient comes to me with symptoms of "general modern malaise", I will start with easy, less risky methods and only graduate to the "next level" when the previous didn't work. I.e. it seems absurd for me to advocate any sort of hormonal intervention for a person who does everything they can to mess up these hormones, like eating a diet low in protein and high in PUFA, taking SSRI, melatonin, statins and other endocrine disruptors, having no physical activity whatsoever (or too much of the wrong kind) and so on. So dietary and behavioral intervention would be first (no risk, almost certain improvement), then supplementation of various vitamins and minerals (for example, I discovered you can have hypovitaminosis A and E even if you eat dozens of eggs every day), then less dangerous hormones like thyroid, pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA, and only after all of these had failed I would even consider blasting test.

Of course, while I would have excellent success rate, I probably could not make a living this way. The cardinal problem is that testosterone has become culturally associated with male sex a long time ago, and thus men don't look at it as any other drug with possible benefits but also side effects, but rather as a injectable, readily available masculinity. Who could decline such an offer? I suspect that a major, although unknown to the ICD, disease that a T"R"T treatment is sought for could be described as "feeling like a huge loser". Entire industries have been built aroung catering to men who don't feel masculine enough and want to buy a fix to that; the penis enlargement pill business alone must be worth billions, and that's without a single real success story. Same with Liver King brouhaha - any moron could tell you he must be on something. He managed to deceive people because they wanted to be deceived, they wanted to believe that liver pills might solve their vague problems.
 
Responders

The majority of the population will obtain benefits. This is true will all medication, supplements and training.

With any group there is a small population of Non-Responders who will obtain a much lower response.

Super Responder get a dramation increase

"There ain't no free lunch."

As you noted, the key to maxing out your result (on them or not on them) is dependent on putting in the work on a well designed and written training program, diet, etc.


The Infamous "They"

Information on what you hear and "They" tell you has little merit.


One of the issues passing on information like this without some reference to substantiate it is a chronic problem that usually prepetuates misinformation being. '

Enormous High Amounts

This term is very vague.

There need to be a number assigned to identify what it is.

As per,,,


An Exaggeration


It is an exaggeration; no thinking to it.

Uneducated

Yes, a lack of eduction in an area mean you are uneducated.

As the saying goes, "Knowledge is Power", "The more you know, the more you grow".

Based on your reponse on this (and another's same response on this site): why would either of you have an interest in having Blood Lipid Panel Test or having CAC, Coronary Artery Calcium measured?
Sir;

Steroid abuse among young people is a known issue including people in the U.S. please check the link below:


I don’t understand the point. Do you suggest there are good coaches that give their young athletes PEDs in a responsible way? Or do you suggest there are young athletes who know what they are doing very well while using PEDs. Please educate me on whom my “they” cover unfairly?

When it comes to TRT, and on being educated on this manner or not. U.S. National library of medicine agrees with me. If you don’t show symptoms don’t test yourself.


Could you please share with me any reputable resource that advices other way around?

And any reputable institution that puts Lipid test on par w Testosterone level test, that is sth that you are better of getting checked before you show symptoms?
 
Good morning y’all,
I am 63 years old and have been active all my life. I noticed in my late 50s that my strength, hypertrophy, mobility and flexibility were a we bit compromised due to my advanced mileage. I live in a rural community in Kentucky and found an open minded physician, a female mind you that was open to prescribing me testosterone cypionate. I get my blood tested every three months and with some patience and experimentation found the right number that is safe for me.
The normal parameters are ridiculously broad. I’m not looking to have 22-year-old male numbers, but I want to be in the upper third of the testing parameters which I’m currently at. I feel strong, virile and resilient. I strongly recommend TRT supplementation. If you use it responsibly and under a doctors care it can serve you well. As I close one thing that doctors sometimes forget to test for is free testosterone. That is the readily available testosterone. Both need to be tested for it to be affective. If your total T is good but your free T is low you may not experience the benefit you’re looking for. One side affect I personally experienced was a elevated red blood cell count, which is a common side effect of taking testosterone. I lowered my dose and gave blood periodically and now it’s in the normal range. Good luck may you have a blessed day. Peace
 
I think purported fragility of current social/economic arrangements is the point here. If you believe that at some time in the future prescription drugs may not be as readily available in the US as they are right now, it would be smart not to make your functioning dependent on one of them.

Also absurd is the concept that if there are some symptoms of malaise, all you need is to test the levels of a single hormone and then start supplementing it. As if there was no other cause of these common symptoms. As if there were no other hormones in the human body that may not be optimal. As if testosterone was an isolated substance that does not interact with any other and can be assessed in isolation.

For example, many of the symptoms bandied around as a justification for T"R"T are also associated with hypothyroidism, which is probably an order of magnitude more common that any actual deficiency in the ability to produce testosterone. Thyroid hormones also have far less possible side effects and can be discontinued much more easily. (Not that I suggest taking thyroid based on reading some short, vague list of symptoms either. But you get my point).

If I were some sort of medical practitioner, it would be obvious for me to have some sort of graduated protocol. Meaning, if a patient comes to me with symptoms of "general modern malaise", I will start with easy, less risky methods and only graduate to the "next level" when the previous didn't work. I.e. it seems absurd for me to advocate any sort of hormonal intervention for a person who does everything they can to mess up these hormones, like eating a diet low in protein and high in PUFA, taking SSRI, melatonin, statins and other endocrine disruptors, having no physical activity whatsoever (or too much of the wrong kind) and so on. So dietary and behavioral intervention would be first (no risk, almost certain improvement), then supplementation of various vitamins and minerals (for example, I discovered you can have hypovitaminosis A and E even if you eat dozens of eggs every day), then less dangerous hormones like thyroid, pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA, and only after all of these had failed I would even consider blasting test.

Of course, while I would have excellent success rate, I probably could not make a living this way. The cardinal problem is that testosterone has become culturally associated with male sex a long time ago, and thus men don't look at it as any other drug with possible benefits but also side effects, but rather as a injectable, readily available masculinity. Who could decline such an offer? I suspect that a major, although unknown to the ICD, disease that a T"R"T treatment is sought for could be described as "feeling like a huge loser". Entire industries have been built aroung catering to men who don't feel masculine enough and want to buy a fix to that; the penis enlargement pill business alone must be worth billions, and that's without a single real success story. Same with Liver King brouhaha - any moron could tell you he must be on something. He managed to deceive people because they wanted to be deceived, they wanted to believe that liver pills might solve their vague problems.
With this new perspective for me I raise the stakes against Testosterone level test.

These are all very valid points.

The existing marketing caught me as well in some ways :))
 
Alternative viewpoint:

By the time peptides get fully legitimized and covered by insurance, you might have decayed more than you would have if you had taken them earlier.

I personally would not put Peptides and SARMS/AAS in the same bucket.

End state is aging is a disease, to go into the details would take hundreds of pages, if you are interested read: Why We Age and Why We Don't Have To by David Sinclair, he is one of the leading geneticists in the world.
Peptides, by and large, are simply replacing lost physiological function. They work on longevity and are not really performance enhancing, like AAS. Their effects are not strong enough to really give someone a competitive athletic edge unless you are talking between 40+ year olds.

I do always chuckle though about the stigma with what we call PEDs. I understand the issue surrounding people's honesty etc., but to cite all the cataclysmic health effects, makes me chuckle. Yes, there are an extreme few who abuse it and kill themselves, but as a whole even if all PEDs were 100% legal I would argue it would have a fraction of the effect on society as, let's say alcohol does.
Alcohol is a mind altering DRUG that has devastating effects on culture, yet we laugh and joke about its consumption as a culture. I have never heard of anyone on PEDs kill an entire family, because they had too much. Or a family terrorized and abused by a parent/s who were hopelessly addicted to PEDs. Alcohol costs us more im society regarding health and mental issues then PEDs ever would.
Or let's talk junk food. Heart disease is the #1 killer in the country (US), by and large attributed to poor diet and lifestyle choices. The medical costs are in the billions, far more devastating than PEDs.

Let me set the record. I don't care if people consume alcohol in excess or eat themselves to death, though I find those lifestyle choices repulsive, and I don't care if a 40+ yo man/woman takes whatever they need to enhance quality of life.

My point is, stop the hypocrisy and call a spade a spade.
 
TRT involves testosterone supplements usually injections but also pills, patches and creams. Due to it’s labelling as a performance enhancing drug, it’s illegality off-prescription in many countries and stories of body-builders dying young there’s a lot of fear associated with it but … Testosterone is a legal “natural” supplement in many countries, some people use it almost their entire adult lives with no ill-effects and it is definitely performance enhancing - people with low T feel better, look better and are stronger with higher T. As to whether you might benefit from testosterone supplementation do some research and talk to your doctor - he/she will certainly have a view, but do your own research so that you’ll have a view too. Alternatively go to a country where it’s legal and walk into a pharmacy and say something like “I am less interested in sex” or “I am tired a lot” or “I want more muscle” and you’ll walk out with a vial and some easy instructions to follow. Follow the instructions! Don’t use too much! If you don’t like it then stop. The key is follow the instructions and don’t use too much.
 
I do always chuckle though about the stigma with what we call PEDs. I understand the issue surrounding people's honesty etc., but to cite all the cataclysmic health effects, makes me chuckle. Yes, there are an extreme few who abuse it and kill themselves, but as a whole even if all PEDs were 100% legal I would argue it would have a fraction of the effect on society as, let's say alcohol does.
It is striking how many people are comparing PEDs with TRT.

Its like someone asking "Hey, anyone ever take Robitussin for a cold?" and getting responses talking about robotripping.
 
YIt is striking how many people are comparing PEDs with TRT.

Its like someone asking "Hey, anyone ever take Robitussin for a cold?" and getting responses talking about robotripping.
TRT for a physiologic low hormone value is one thing.

Taking it to drive T levels sbove a physiologic natural average to enhance exercise performance or adaptive response and not being forthcoming about it is another. Too many people these days think you have to take T to make any real progress - this is a great disservice esp to youth. Yet another facet of life that is phoney and tied to shelling out money for results - why bother?

Bragging about how well you shrug off a cold naturally while taking Robitussin might be a better analogy in many cases. Personally I don’t really care, but if someone is going to strut like a peacock they should be honest about the fake feathers.
 
Is there anything anyone can add to the discussion about _why_ performance would need to be restored?

Thanks.

-S-
Kinda seems like something to discuss with a doctor. Without direction, you are just "taking T" instead of it being a replacement therapy.
I did link a podcast that went over in detail the reasons why someone would opt for TRT and what they can expect taking it and afterwards.
Basically conditions, where your T levels are less than optimal and causing a detriment to your life so much that shaving a few years off at the end, is worth it. Cancer and aging are two common ones.
TRT for a physiologic low hormone value is one thing.

Taking it to drive T levels sbove a physiologic natural average to enhance exercise performance or adaptive response and not being forthcoming about it is another. Too many people these days think you have to take T to make any real progress - this is a great disservice esp to youth. Yet another facet of life that is phoney and tied to shelling out money for results - why bother?

Bragging about how well you shrug off a cold naturally while taking Robitussin might be a better analogy in many cases. Personally I don’t really care, but if someone is going to strut like a peacock they should be honest about the fake feathers.
Not going to lie, I only skimmed the people talking PEDs because it was so off topic of what the question was as I understood it.
But yeah, agree that people that take steroids and lie about it while selling their lifestyle in the forms of supplements are not good people.
 
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Kinda seems like something to discuss with a doctor. Without direction, you are just "taking T" instead of it being a replacement therapy.
I did link a podcast that went over in detail the reasons why someone would opt for TRT and what they can expect taking it and afterwards.
Basically conditions, where your T levels are less than optimal and causing a detriment to your life so much that shaving a few years off at the end, is worth it. Cancer and aging are two common ones.

Not going to lie, I only skimmed the people talking PEDs because it was so off topic of what the question was as I understood it.
A doctor, like a prescription, doesn't make something good or bad. The test is whether testosterone supplementation improves your functioning. For most people that's because their testosterone is low and they feel better when their testosterone is higher but what's low and what's high depends on their presentation and expectations. If you go to a TRT clinic they will vary dosages over time and take multiple bloodwork to manipulate your hormonal levels into quite precise ranges but some other people just start at a low dosage and increase it until they feel better, then keep it there. It just depends on why you're taking it in the first place, what avenue you pursued to access it (which is often jurisdiction dependent) and what your objective is. Your comment about shaving a few years off someone's life is equating testosterone, a perfectly natural substance, to a toxin. We're all on testosterone! We're all on estrogen! We're all on vitamin D! The amount each of us is on is different. And anything in excess can kill you.
 
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