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Programming Improv Block Training Thread

This Dan John video reminded me of the way blocks of different training procedures are discussed in this thread, might be of interest to some of you

youtube.com/watch?v=eb0ai9M02og "Can kettlebells substitute all of your training ?"
Thanks for sharing. I love the video and the program for an experienced person.

Now if you may I am going to iterate the block training concept for a beginner, for my self. (I have done an iteration like this in this thread to see if I understand why block training is done with my own simple words and was confirmed that basically I am right)

I would love to receive comments, this is not a “claim” but sharing my understanding on block training as a novice, so someone more experienced can correct me.

As a beginner, who is enjoying the “beginner super magical powers of ability to improve linearly” I don’t need block training.

I want to focus on basics, so that I have more chance to practice basics and once I pass the basics in strength, mobility, condition etc, and once to improve all those attributes linearly almost together is beyond my recovery or adaptation capability only then I will consider block training.

As a beginner, I have no business with block training. Am I right?
 
Thanks for sharing. I love the video and the program for an experienced person.

Now if you may I am going to iterate the block training concept for a beginner, for my self. (I have done an iteration like this in this thread to see if I understand why block training is done with my own simple words and was confirmed that basically I am right)

I would love to receive comments, this is not a “claim” but sharing my understanding on block training as a novice, so someone more experienced can correct me.

As a beginner, who is enjoying the “beginner super magical powers of ability to improve linearly” I don’t need block training.

I want to focus on basics, so that I have more chance to practice basics and once I pass the basics in strength, mobility, condition etc, and once to improve all those attributes linearly almost together is beyond my recovery or adaptation capability only then I will consider block training.

As a beginner, I have no business with block training. Am I right?
Yes, I think it is best to have a clear focus.

S&S was my focus for two years and helped me to build a solid foundation. Then I learned to press and focused on it for 8 months. Only then did I start alternating blocks, as a means of staying focused, but with more variety.

That being said, I think there is nothing wrong with interrupting S&S for a few weeks for a hypertrophy block once or twice per year, if that suits you.
 
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Yes, I think it is best to have a clear focus.

S&S was my focus for two years and helped me to build a solid foundation. Then I learned to press and focused on it for 8 months. Only then did I start alternating blocks, as a means of staying focused, but with more variety.

That being said, I think there is nothing wrong with interrupting S&S for a few weeks for a hypertrophy block once or twice per year, if that suits you.
Thanks a lot sir.

And honestly, I was about to insert a comment about hypertrophy cycle :) to my original post but then it would defeat the purpose of my post.

I will play w ear, if I want a Hypertrophy cycle ( have done a 4 weeks cycle a short while ago) with Built Strong minimalist, I have a great hypertrophy tool/program under my belt. I can throw it in depending on my choice of the muscle amount that I want to carry around.

With Fabio’s programming, hypertrophy training is not a torture chamber for me any more.

Thanks!!!
 
Update:
Now in my last snatch block, doing KSK 1.0 Phase 1 again but now with a 32k. Feels really good. As @Bauer has written before, switching blocks helps relieve some of the nagging little injuries that were building up.

Also, related PSA:
For anyone with an injury they’re rehabbing (or should be): give yourself TIME. I could have rushed and used the 32k for snatches 2 snatch blocks ago, but it wouldn’t have felt good for my shoulder. I now actually feel ready for it after the blocks I’ve done before this. Rushing the process is a good way to waste time; in 6 months/6 years you won’t even remember you took the slow road. Would you rather take baby-steps up to the summit or big jumps and go over a cliff?
 
Update:
Now in my last snatch block, doing KSK 1.0 Phase 1 again but now with a 32k. Feels really good. As @Bauer has written before, switching blocks helps relieve some of the nagging little injuries that were building up.

Also, related PSA:
For anyone with an injury they’re rehabbing (or should be): give yourself TIME. I could have rushed and used the 32k for snatches 2 snatch blocks ago, but it wouldn’t have felt good for my shoulder. I now actually feel ready for it after the blocks I’ve done before this. Rushing the process is a good way to waste time; in 6 months/6 years you won’t even remember you took the slow road. Would you rather take baby-steps up to the summit or big jumps and go over a cliff?
Thanks for the update and your thoughts. Good to hear!
 
Yes, I think it is best to have a clear focus.

S&S was my focus for two years and helped me to build a solid foundation. Then I learned to press and focused on it for 8 months. Only then did I start alternating blocks, as a means of staying focused, but with more variety.

That being said, I think there is nothing wrong with interrupting S&S for a few weeks for a hypertrophy block once or twice per year, if that suits you.
Which programs/program did you utilize to practice press in your early days? Did you reach simple with S&S? Did you go beyond or lower than simple?
 
Which programs/program did you utilize to practice press in your early days? Did you reach simple with S&S? Did you go beyond or lower than simple?
Timeless Simple. Originally, I wanted to go on, but then I got sick and just switched to pressing. For one month I did a lot of singles (just practice, 10-25 reps total), then I tested my RM and started ROP (2.0). I guess Iron Cardio would be a good starting point.
 
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Timeless Simple. Originally, I wanted to go on, but then I got sick and just switched to pressing. For one month I did a lot of singles (just practice, 10-25 reps total), then I tested my RM and started ROP (2.0). I guess Iron Cardio would be a good starting point.
Thanks Sir. I did not know there is a first and second version of RoP? But this answer helps a lot already.
 
Thanks Sir. I did not know there is a first and second version of RoP? But this answer helps a lot already.
It's still experimental. Classic RoP will be fine, too.

Come to think of it, I also did a lot of pressing drills from Victorious!
 
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It's still experimental. Classic RoP will be fine, too.

Come to think of it, I also did a lot of pressing drills from Victorious!
Is this a third book coming from Pavel? Or a possible SF training ? But nevertheless, there is still time for me to think about those, probably next year…
 
Semi-regular Update:
Finished my final Snatch block, should be starting my last DCJ block on Sat night. I’ll then retest all the various things I tested 20ish weeks ago to see how this experiment went.
One thing I’ve noticed in this block and my previous DCJ block was I had days where I increased volume significantly but my RPE didn’t jump up in a meaningful way if at all. Super cool.
 
I’ve been a lurker for a couple of years, but this thread is near and dear to my heart. I’ve been using block training for 2 years now. My primary blocks are PTTP and S&S. I will detour when I get an itch or craving some variety, but PTTP and S&S are my bread and butter.

For the first 6 months, I switched every 2 weeks. That works, but I didn’t like it. I tried 4 months of 4 week blocks. That works great for S&S, but felt too long for PTTP. So at the 10 month mark, I started with 3 weeks PTTP and 4 weeks S&S. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past 14 months.

3 weeks of PTTP gives me between 15 and 18 sessions. I chose 4 weeks for S&S because at the time I was moving towards Timeless Simple and 4 weeks matches the perfect progression from the book.

PTTP Blocks
I followed the book - press and hinge. For the hinge, I’ll alternate between conventional, sumo, and trap bar dead lifts. Most of my time has been with conventional, but I will admit that I enjoy trap bar more. Pressing I do have more variety here. I’ve done flat, incline, and military barbell and dumbbell pressing. I’ve even thrown in weighted dips (although doing them everyday didn’t agree with me).

I’m sure some of you are wondering “But what else did you do? You had to have an upper body pull?”. I do. But I’m not trying to progress it. Twice a week at the end of a session, I’ll do a set of 5 pull ups. I’m simply maintaining the skill not trying to get better/stronger. the other days, I do active hanging, which makes my back feel better than anything else.

After each session, I’ll do 30 to 45 minutes of zone 2 cardio. Always 30, sometimes 45. 45 would depend on how far behind in podcasts I am. PTTP and Zone 2 mix very well together for me. I tried doing 2 a days - cardio in the AM, PTTP in the PM - but I hated it. So cardio after PTTP works fine for me. Once a week, I’ll do a 90 to 120 minute session. These long sessions are usually always outdoors - bike or kayak. But this gets me a minimum of 240 minutes of pure cardio a week. My cardiologist loves me for it.

I track average heart rate, average RPM, and total distance. Over time I like to see my RPM or distance go up with my heart rate staying relatively stable.

S&S Blocks
Have you read the book? Then you know what I’m doing. I follow the book 99% as written. The 1% divergence is the 2 sets of 5 pull ups I do a couple of times a week. And I do those on the 2 handed swing days.

No additional cardio is done. The swings are my cardio. I have found that I do lose a bit of my conditioning when I go back onto PTTP blocks. Within 2 or 3 sessions, I’m where I left off before.

Detours
Every once in a while I will take a detour. I took a detour from PTTP and did a 2 3 week blocks of just clean and press. Taking from the floor each rep. This got me the press and hinge in one movement. I used barbell and log. I’ll probably start working log in more often as it‘s just a fun thing to use. I picked up 60 sandbag sessions from NEVERsate.com. I’ve only done 1 3 week block of just sandbag work. I thought I’d do something everyday, but ended up just doing 3 days a week. It was insanely brutal. And I look forward to doing it again in the spring/summer when I can do it outside and finish the sessions off with some sled pushes/pulls.

I’m currently in an S&S block. I think when I finish I’m going to do a detour and run More Kettlebell Muscle “You don’t know Squat 2.0”. Since it is 9 weeks, I’m debating just swapping it in as my next 3 PTTP blocks vs. doing it all in one go. Haven’t decided yet. I’m guessing that the program is meant to be run continuously so you benefit from the reduced rest intervals.

Gains
My gains? I’m not winning any powerlifting meets. But my last block of PTTP, I used overhead press and conventional deadlift. Using 3 forward/2 back waves and went from 135 to 150 pounds on the overhead press and 410 to 420 on the deadlift at 185 pounds bodyweight.

For S&S, I’m currently using 44kg for my swings and 28kg for my get ups. yeah…my get ups are really lagging. I’m good from floor to elbow and elbow to hand. But the high bridge and leg sweep, really let me down. When I try 32kg, the bridge is shaky and my leg drags on the sweep.

But all in all, I love these alternating blocks. Using PTTP and S&S as the base works great for me. In the past, I used to hem and haw about what I’m going to run next (5/3/1 Forever was the worst book I ever bought because SO MANY and interesting plans). Detouring occasionally lets me have some fun and scratch my “program hopper“ itch. Once scratched, I just get back to work with PTTP and S&S.
 
I’ve been a lurker for a couple of years, but this thread is near and dear to my heart. I’ve been using block training for 2 years now. My primary blocks are PTTP and S&S. I will detour when I get an itch or craving some variety, but PTTP and S&S are my bread and butter.

For the first 6 months, I switched every 2 weeks. That works, but I didn’t like it. I tried 4 months of 4 week blocks. That works great for S&S, but felt too long for PTTP. So at the 10 month mark, I started with 3 weeks PTTP and 4 weeks S&S. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past 14 months.

3 weeks of PTTP gives me between 15 and 18 sessions. I chose 4 weeks for S&S because at the time I was moving towards Timeless Simple and 4 weeks matches the perfect progression from the book.

PTTP Blocks
I followed the book - press and hinge. For the hinge, I’ll alternate between conventional, sumo, and trap bar dead lifts. Most of my time has been with conventional, but I will admit that I enjoy trap bar more. Pressing I do have more variety here. I’ve done flat, incline, and military barbell and dumbbell pressing. I’ve even thrown in weighted dips (although doing them everyday didn’t agree with me).

I’m sure some of you are wondering “But what else did you do? You had to have an upper body pull?”. I do. But I’m not trying to progress it. Twice a week at the end of a session, I’ll do a set of 5 pull ups. I’m simply maintaining the skill not trying to get better/stronger. the other days, I do active hanging, which makes my back feel better than anything else.

After each session, I’ll do 30 to 45 minutes of zone 2 cardio. Always 30, sometimes 45. 45 would depend on how far behind in podcasts I am. PTTP and Zone 2 mix very well together for me. I tried doing 2 a days - cardio in the AM, PTTP in the PM - but I hated it. So cardio after PTTP works fine for me. Once a week, I’ll do a 90 to 120 minute session. These long sessions are usually always outdoors - bike or kayak. But this gets me a minimum of 240 minutes of pure cardio a week. My cardiologist loves me for it.

I track average heart rate, average RPM, and total distance. Over time I like to see my RPM or distance go up with my heart rate staying relatively stable.

S&S Blocks
Have you read the book? Then you know what I’m doing. I follow the book 99% as written. The 1% divergence is the 2 sets of 5 pull ups I do a couple of times a week. And I do those on the 2 handed swing days.

No additional cardio is done. The swings are my cardio. I have found that I do lose a bit of my conditioning when I go back onto PTTP blocks. Within 2 or 3 sessions, I’m where I left off before.

Detours
Every once in a while I will take a detour. I took a detour from PTTP and did a 2 3 week blocks of just clean and press. Taking from the floor each rep. This got me the press and hinge in one movement. I used barbell and log. I’ll probably start working log in more often as it‘s just a fun thing to use. I picked up 60 sandbag sessions from NEVERsate.com. I’ve only done 1 3 week block of just sandbag work. I thought I’d do something everyday, but ended up just doing 3 days a week. It was insanely brutal. And I look forward to doing it again in the spring/summer when I can do it outside and finish the sessions off with some sled pushes/pulls.

I’m currently in an S&S block. I think when I finish I’m going to do a detour and run More Kettlebell Muscle “You don’t know Squat 2.0”. Since it is 9 weeks, I’m debating just swapping it in as my next 3 PTTP blocks vs. doing it all in one go. Haven’t decided yet. I’m guessing that the program is meant to be run continuously so you benefit from the reduced rest intervals.

Gains
My gains? I’m not winning any powerlifting meets. But my last block of PTTP, I used overhead press and conventional deadlift. Using 3 forward/2 back waves and went from 135 to 150 pounds on the overhead press and 410 to 420 on the deadlift at 185 pounds bodyweight.

For S&S, I’m currently using 44kg for my swings and 28kg for my get ups. yeah…my get ups are really lagging. I’m good from floor to elbow and elbow to hand. But the high bridge and leg sweep, really let me down. When I try 32kg, the bridge is shaky and my leg drags on the sweep.

But all in all, I love these alternating blocks. Using PTTP and S&S as the base works great for me. In the past, I used to hem and haw about what I’m going to run next (5/3/1 Forever was the worst book I ever bought because SO MANY and interesting plans). Detouring occasionally lets me have some fun and scratch my “program hopper“ itch. Once scratched, I just get back to work with PTTP and S&S.
Thank you for chiming in! Very interesting that you ended up with a 3-4 split.

How many times per week are you doing S&S?

Do you find that you can pick everything up where you left it? I am especially interested in your press here. I ask, because Fabio Zonin recommends some skill practice/maintenance volume during 4-week blocks.

Personally, with 2 week blocks without maintenance volume, I have found that the first 1-2 sessions feel rusty but doable and then I am already ready to progress. You mentioned something similar for Z2 work.
 
Thank you for chiming in! Very interesting that you ended up with a 3-4 split.

How many times per week are you doing S&S?
Since I’m working mostly with 40kg on the swings, I only go 4 days a week. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday. Saturday is always 2 handed swings so I don’t do back to back “heavy” days. I recently picked up the SF Kettlebell course off StrongAndFit. I’ve been giving some thought of switching over to it for a bit. I really like the progression and weight standards in it. But S&S has been so good to me :)

Do you find that you can pick everything up where you left it? I am especially interested in your press here. I ask, because Fabio Zonin recommends some skill practice/maintenance volume during 4-week blocks.

Personally, with 2 week blocks without maintenance volume, I have found that the first 1-2 sessions feel rusty but doable and then I am already ready to progress. You mentioned something similar for Z2 work.
I’m a big fan of Wendler’s 5/3/1. And the 3 week cycles fit nicely with how I schedule out PTTP blocks. But I don’t think hitting each major lift only 3 times in 3 weeks is going to be as good as what I’ve got right now. With that said, one of the principals I picked up from Wendler is always have a goal with your PR sets. The example in the books is to figure out your E1RM and try to beat it each time.

So long story long, that’s what I do on my 3 week blocks. I have a goal E1RM that I want to hit by the end of the block. Once I have that goal, I work backwards when setting up the waves (I mostly use 4 forward, 3 back waves). On my last overhead press, I set the goal of an E1RM of 165. Doing the reverse math for 5 reps, 145x5 is 163 and 150x5 is 169. I went with the higher number this time. From that number, I just start building the waves backwards (using 2.5 pound increments on pressing movements):

Example of 18 sessions - 150, 147.5, 145, 142.5, 147.5, 145, 142.5, 140, 145, 142.5, 140, 137.5, 142.5, 140, 137.5, 135, 132.5, 130

It’s not a perfect wave (as you can see in the above example). The 130 - 135 are my maintenance volume that you mention. Depending on how I feel day of, I’ll do one warmup set of 70% of whatever my target weight for the day is. That’s usually enough to get me switched on for the day’s weight. For this past block of overhead press, this worked out well. But let’s say it didn’t. Let’s say that 130 felt horrible (or worse - I miss a rep). I’ll adjust my goal down and recalculate my wave. I’ve had to do this on occasion.

If it is a movement I’ve not done in awhile or very different from what I did previously (for example, overhead barbell press to dumbbell flat bench), I’ll give myself 4 maintenance sessions and use a more aggressive 3 forward, 2 back wave to hit my goal E1RM. If it is a movement I‘ve never done, I don’t set a goal.

I use the same model for deadlift. Pick a E1RM goal and work backwards.

I’ve tried step loading vs. waves, but it didn’t work as well for me. The resets (3 or 2 back) really keep me motivated because I know I can hit that weight with no problems. Since I’m setting so many goals throughout the year, if I miss once or twice, I’m OK with it. When I used to do 8, 10, or 12 week programs, I always got frustrated when I didn’t hit my goal.
 
I’ve been a lurker for a couple of years, but this thread is near and dear to my heart. I’ve been using block training for 2 years now. My primary blocks are PTTP and S&S. I will detour when I get an itch or craving some variety, but PTTP and S&S are my bread and butter.

For the first 6 months, I switched every 2 weeks. That works, but I didn’t like it. I tried 4 months of 4 week blocks. That works great for S&S, but felt too long for PTTP. So at the 10 month mark, I started with 3 weeks PTTP and 4 weeks S&S. And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past 14 months.

3 weeks of PTTP gives me between 15 and 18 sessions. I chose 4 weeks for S&S because at the time I was moving towards Timeless Simple and 4 weeks matches the perfect progression from the book.
First off, welcome to this thread. Second off, nice job paying attention to what works for you over a decent amount of time and making adjustments. Expect that with a 4 week-block you may lose a bit of something coming out of it (30 days is allegedly the tail-end of how long strength and some other qualities stick around for), but as you noted later, you get it back within a session or two so who cares. You hit on an important underlying principle which is keep things simple; S&S uses 4-weeks, so for convenience you did the same. Totally fine even if it isn’t “perfect.” It’s working, it’s easy, and fits the general guidelines for block training, so that’s what matters.

PTTP Blocks
I’m sure some of you are wondering “But what else did you do? You had to have an upper body pull?”. I do. But I’m not trying to progress it. Twice a week at the end of a session, I’ll do a set of 5 pull ups. I’m simply maintaining the skill not trying to get better/stronger. the other days, I do active hanging, which makes my back feel better than anything else.
I like that you include a minimal amount of upper body pull to maintain shoulder health. I know we aren’t big on always having balanced programs here, but in the long run it is important. You seem to have found a way to do it that takes minimal effort and investment, which is key.

I track average heart rate, average RPM, and total distance. Over time I like to see my RPM or distance go up with my heart rate staying relatively stable.
Have you seen the progress you were looking for in this area?

Detours
I’m currently in an S&S block. I think when I finish I’m going to do a detour and run More Kettlebell Muscle “You don’t know Squat 2.0”. Since it is 9 weeks, I’m debating just swapping it in as my next 3 PTTP blocks vs. doing it all in one go. Haven’t decided yet. I’m guessing that the program is meant to be run continuously so you benefit from the reduced rest intervals.
@Geoff Neupert can answer this question. He’s talked about breaking up other programs but I haven’t seen him discuss this one specifically.

Gains
My gains? I’m not winning any powerlifting meets. But my last block of PTTP, I used overhead press and conventional deadlift. Using 3 forward/2 back waves and went from 135 to 150 pounds on the overhead press and 410 to 420 on the deadlift at 185 pounds bodyweight.
81%xBW for OHP and 2.25xBW for DL; those are good numbers for a non-competing lifter. I assume you're going to continue trying to get your OHP to at least 1xBW, and your DL is already above the 2xBW range that is generally recommended for a lot of sports or as just a good and attainable standard that doesn't require a lot of special investment.

For S&S, I’m currently using 44kg for my swings and 28kg for my get ups. yeah…my get ups are really lagging. I’m good from floor to elbow and elbow to hand. But the high bridge and leg sweep, really let me down. When I try 32kg, the bridge is shaky and my leg drags on the sweep.
SF doesn't teach the high bridge in the KBSF program, so you could probably skip it. I don't think it matters if your leg gently brushes the ground during the sweep. I'm not recommending rush that step, but if you're deliberately going really slow for that portion you may be making it unnecessarily difficult. Find the goldilocks speed for it.
 
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