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Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic continued...

1:50/500m average heart rate not above 100bpm ???

To keep hr low while running...try go slow. I mean 'run' at a speed you could go. Build up from there...
Didn't even get close to 100, in the beginning my heart rate went down from 90ish to the 60s, highest I could get to was 87 after that and I was breathing hard.

Regarding the jogging, I'm literally going super slow, strange thing is there is a hill near my place that I sprint up at the end, and heart rate doesn't go over 140 doing that, but slow jogging along a flat path can spike it very high,
 
Recently I did an A&A session using our base gym's 28KG kettlebell (and also got some goblet squats and getups practiced here). Session was as follows:

Goblet Squat @ 28KG: 3x5 (sets x reps)
Swings x 5/26 minutes: 125 total reps (25 sets of 5)
Getups x1/15 minutes: 11 reps

AVG HR: 139 BPM
MAX HR: 162 BPM

The higher AVG heart rate I attribute to using the 28KG for the one arm swings across the board. Somewhat surprisingly enough my heart rate really spiked up during the getups as opposed to the swings. I then realized the time under tension is what did that.

Subsequently, while re-reading Simple and Sinister I got to thinking that two handed shadow swings with light kettlebells could be a 'close enough' alternative if heavier KBs are unavailable wherever I happen to be.
 
Subsequently, while re-reading Simple and Sinister I got to thinking that two handed shadow swings with light kettlebells could be a 'close enough' alternative if heavier KBs are unavailable wherever I happen to be.
These work great for that ( from Al Ciampa's Deployment Prep article):

Swings​

One-hand swings should be performed as described in Simple & Sinister. Two-hand swings have to be overspeed. But here’s my version, an excerpt from my training manual:

“A proper swing is a tug-of-war between the opposing body lines: posterior v. anterior. The glutes, hamstrings, and quads forcefully catapult the bell forward, while the lats, abdominals, and hip flexors catch it and throw it back—compress the posterior spring, fire the spring, compress the anterior spring, fire that spring, then do it again. Both the hinge and plank position are maximally tight—maximum feed-forward tension—for the time the bell spends flying out, one is “relaxed- tight”.

Throw the bell from the coiled spring of the hinge into the tight plank—stay connected to the bell—”catch” it in the plank and throw it back down. Recoil the spring and snap back to plank. Repeat for a set of 10. Check your heart rate. Wow.

Most people have a lot of trouble with this when they first start swinging—just get the basic pattern down and be patient. Use an appropriate load. My progression to this very violent overspeed swing is to train a floater swing first—the default swing of the StrongFirst community. Floater swings consist of driving the hips explosively, throwing the bell into a tight plank, however, the bells ascent is not arrested but is allowed to “float” momentarily at the top of the arch. The bell should then be guided back down into the hinge without too much effort. These swings concentrate on hip extension power.

It is important to train this initial version of the swing before you begin to overspeed them—train them until you’ve burnt the motor program into your brain, perhaps about 3-6 months. Hear this: if you include over-speed swings into your training too early, that is, before you can float swings gracefully and powerfully, without much thought, you will degrade the mechanics of both swing types and get no where at best, injury at worst. Be patient, put your hours in on the floaters, then include a few overspeed swings as you progress.

A word on sit-ups here: I don’t advocate training sit-ups regularly, in fact you should only perform them on test day. If folks performed sit-ups properly, then there is a possibility that they wouldn‘t cause problems. However, most do not perform them correctly, especially under testing situations, and so even a short stint in the Military can lead to life-long low-back pain. Sit-ups place the lumbar spine against the ground to be used as a fulcrum to fold the body in half over—something it did not evolve to support. If you do sit-ups properly—that is, keep the midline open and lead the action from the chest, only flexing only at the hip—then the most you’ll probably get is a sore tailbone. But that technique costs a lot of energy and requires a lot of strength, so most members I monitor perform them in trunk flexion followed by hip flexion—and there’s where the problem exists. Do your heavy-ish swings to improve your sit-up numbers.





Use the swings in the Simple & Sinister fashion with a twist: 10 x overspeeds, 10 x right, 10 x left, for 3-4 total rounds (90-120 total swings). Do these 3-5 times per week. I even like this swing session after a long ruck.
 
Is there an upper limit for HR under the A+A Protcol?

5 reps of one arm snatches typically gets my HR into the high 140s whereas double clean and push presses take me into the high 150s, sometimes higher depending on temp etc.
 
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Is there an upper limit for HR under the A+A Protcol?

5 reps of one arm snatches typically gets my HR into the high 140s whereas double clean and push presses take me into the high 150s, sometimes higher depending on temp etc.

Not that I've ever observed.

I'm usually hitting the 140s/150s when swinging for fast sets of five near the middle to end of training sessions. I tend to just set a clock (at present 26 minutes), increasing it by 10% every two weeks as a progression. I do sets of five by feel, whenever my heartrate drops to on or about 135 BPM, give or take a few beats per minute.
 
Not that I've ever observed.

I'm usually hitting the 140s/150s when swinging for fast sets of five near the middle to end of training sessions. I tend to just set a clock (at present 26 minutes), increasing it by 10% every two weeks as a progression. I do sets of five by feel, whenever my heartrate drops to on or about 135 BPM, give or take a few beats per minute.
Thanks! I am experimenting letting my HR return to 160 minus my age (105BPM for me) before starting next repeat. Repeats taking longer but technique improving with increased rest. Hoping to reduce time it takes to drop to target HR over time.
 
Sir and dear followers of this thread;

I know a talk test driven approach is enough for mortals. But I want to take advice from the people who measures their heart rate, what might be some advices for people who use talk test? How far is someone off by utilizing heart rate and based on experiences/observations how someone utilizing talk test can get closer to quality of HR driven approach?
 
Sir and dear followers of this thread;

I know a talk test driven approach is enough for mortals. But I want to take advice from the people who measures their heart rate, what might be some advices for people who use talk test? How far is someone off by utilizing heart rate and based on experiences/observations how someone utilizing talk test can get closer to quality of HR driven approach?
I think you will not go wrong using HR for determining when to start the next set without worrying about upper limits..

For example: Start the next set once HR has returned to 110 (or 100 or even 90) BPM.

You might even introduce an upper limit for recovery time. E.g., if HR does not return to 100 within 2 minutes, then stop the session.
 
Is there an upper limit for HR under the A+A Protcol?

5 reps of one arm snatches typically gets my HR into the high 140s whereas double clean and push presses take me into the high 150s, sometimes higher depending on temp etc.

I agree, not really an upper limit. But the HR can tell a story about the session. I recommend an app where you see the HR graph over time. This can provide some useful feedback during and/or after the session.

Double clean and push presses -- like (C + PP ) x 5? That would probably be longer than a typical A+A repeat (which is 12-17-ish seconds... I don't recall if an exact time period has been defined, but it's relatively short).
 
I agree, not really an upper limit. But the HR can tell a story about the session. I recommend an app where you see the HR graph over time. This can provide some useful feedback during and/or after the session.

Double clean and push presses -- like (C + PP ) x 5? That would probably be longer than a typical A+A repeat (which is 12-17-ish seconds... I don't recall if an exact time period has been defined, but it's relatively short).
Agreed. I generally take note of my maximum and average heart rates during sessions and amount of work done in a session.

My 'recovery' between sets is by feel and heart rate. I'll go powerful and technical for five reps and then rest 'as needed' over a fixed time span. Though I'm also looking into EMOM or similar duration settings of recovery too.
 
I agree, not really an upper limit. But the HR can tell a story about the session. I recommend an app where you see the HR graph over time. This can provide some useful feedback during and/or after the session.

Double clean and push presses -- like (C + PP ) x 5? That would probably be longer than a typical A+A repeat (which is 12-17-ish seconds... I don't recall if an exact time period has been defined, but it's relatively short).
Thanks as always Anna!

I wasn’t clear in my post, 5 x snatch but 3 x DBC&PP.
 
For example: Start the next set once HR has returned to 110 (or 100 or even 90) BPM.
I'd be careful with providing exact numbers. Everybody is different - capabilities, objectives. If one actively walks between the sets, I can hardly see how he/she drops from, let say, 150 bpm to 90. Then, like Anna pointed, there's difference between heavy doubles long cycle set of 20-30 sec and single of 10-15 sec. And then - your tiredness grow through the session, and identifying the beginning of the next set by the same HR value might as well grow your rests period as twice comparing between the beginning and the end of the session. Even the Panzer Motz's graphs with all his inhuman capabilities are not that linear, keeping the same intervals between the sets, as A+A assumes. In this case it's better to stick to even intervals, allowing slight deviation to get the HR into normal, if too high (I would use zones, or 15-20 bpm ranges as reference). All is my humble opinion, of course.
 
I'd be careful with providing exact numbers. Everybody is different - capabilities, objectives. If one actively walks between the sets, I can hardly see how he/she drops from, let say, 150 bpm to 90. Then, like Anna pointed, there's difference between heavy doubles long cycle set of 20-30 sec and single of 10-15 sec. And then - your tiredness grow through the session, and identifying the beginning of the next set by the same HR value might as well grow your rests period as twice comparing between the beginning and the end of the session. Even the Panzer Motz's graphs with all his inhuman capabilities are not that linear, keeping the same intervals between the sets, as A+A assumes. In this case it's better to stick to even intervals, allowing slight deviation to get the HR into normal, if too high (I would use zones, or 15-20 bpm ranges as reference). All is my humble opinion, of course.
I agree, and therefore I did not prescribe a specific HR for everyone. Harald has recommended this range (start a set when HR returns to 90-110 BPM) a couple of times before. Yes, rest times could get longer. Therefore the idea of generous cut-off times.
Here is a SF example of how this could be applied with step-ups, accounting for different individual and fluctuating resting heart rates:

But my main point is that lower limits would be more helpful than upper limits.
 
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I'd be careful with providing exact numbers. Everybody is different - capabilities, objectives.
for untimed A+A start the next repeat when breathing is fully normalized and do a lot of repeats.

for timed A+A go until you don't pass the talk test anymore. Here you would need/do less sets than than untimed repeats.

breath watching works for eaach individual.
 
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