What next? Double Kettlebells or Barbells?

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think CrossFit athletes ARE bulky, at the least the ones I see on TV.

Not So

As per...

You could just as easily look at CrossFit athletes and see examples where lots of barbell work is not making them bulky.

I used the Barbell to get bulky on purpose. I realize there are many things you can do with a barbell. But I think if you want to get bulky on purpose, the barbell is the best tool for that.

Calorie Intake

This is the best tool for getting bulky, gaining weight, etc.

Barbell Training isn't necessarily any more effective than a well written and executed Kettlebell Training Program, etc. in conjucntion with an caloire surplus.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Even for women with "toned" aesthetic goals, they would be better off to achieve the look they want if they took advantage of beginner heavish barbel gains in the beginning before switching over to KB or whatever.

Barbells Or Kettlebells

Either will get someone to where they want to go, if...

A calorie deficit is achieved to lose body fat and become "Toned", another term with little meaning.
The exercise program is well designed and followed.

Dr Brad Schoenfield's Research

His research determined that optimally increasing Muscle Mass was most effective with...

1) Mechnical Tension

Heavy lifting.

2) Metabolic Stress:

Hypertrophy Training

3) Muscle Damage

Infrequently training to near failure or failure as well as Full Range Movement that provide a "Loaded Stretch" on the muscle in the movement.

This can be achieved with Barbells, Kettlebells, Selectorize Weight Machines, etc., providing the concept is training concept is understood.

 

[Nate]

Perhaps we just have different definitions.

I don't consider this bulky:

I consider this bulky:

These guys are genetic freaks. Look at the average Crossfitter and you'll get a very different conclusion. If we're not careful, we'll all just start doing pushups to be the next Hershel Walker-like NFL running back.

Regarding costs: if all you need is a 53# bell, its the cheapest route bc they're about $2/#. But if you need pairs of a bunch of sizes, cost adds up quickly. Barbell would be your cheapest bet since those weights can go as low as $1-2/#. So do you want limited weight options, but good for unilateral, multi-planar exercises; or do you want more weight options & higher total load?
Remember, if you take care of things, "like-new" weights sell used for similar to new, so you can get most or all of your money back someday if you need.

 

[jayjo]

You've happened upon a controversial word... especially in the women's strength training arena! Trainers are forever arguing about whether strength training, especially barbell training, will make a woman "bulky" and whether it's a myth.

My perspective is that "bulky" is in the eye of the beholder. What is bulky to one, is not to another. And whether it's a positive or a negative thing to be, also a matter of personal opinion. And whatever it is, I can say I'm more of it since starting to train with barbells as opposed to kettlebells, especially since my barbell work started with more powerlifting style and then moved to weightlifting.

I think it's a number of things, all more likely (though certainly not guaranteed) to be brought on with barbell training:

• more muscle mass overall
• heavier bodyweight
• a sturdier core
• more upper body mass

Whereas, kettlebell training will tend more towards:

• wiry muscles that are stronger than they look
• less cross sectional area of most muscles ("less bulk")
• lighter bodyweight
• strong abs, but not a beercan shape
• smaller legs than a barbell lifter

All that said... it's all in the programming and use of the tool, not the tool itself. So those are generalities that aren't guaranteed to apply to any one individual.

Not to mention diet, which certainly plays a major role.

Anyway, I think the point is a good one! I agree with @jayjo.

Thanks for backing me up Anna C. I definitely agree with your 2 lists and its what I've found myself moving from Barbells to Kettlebells. I think a big part of the results are the 2 different tools engender different rep ranges, range of motion and rep speed.

 

[Antti]

Thanks for backing me up Anna C. I definitely agree with your 2 lists and its what I've found myself moving from Barbells to Kettlebells. I think a big part of the results are the 2 different tools engender different rep ranges, range of motion and rep speed.

Why would "the 2 different tools engender different rep ranges, range of motion and rep speed"? How I see, it's only a matter of programming, not tool choice.

 

[Anna C]

I think a big part of the results are the 2 different tools engender different rep ranges, range of motion and rep speed.

Why would "the 2 different tools engender different rep ranges, range of motion and rep speed"? How I see, it's only a matter of programming, not tool choice.

I would agree, but there's some nuance...

The barbell is almost universally is going to be a heavier weight. Other than just the bar which I only use for warm-up, the lowest weight I'm ever using with a barbell for any work sets is about 25 kg (power snatch, press). With a kettlebell, I can got some quality work in with as little as 10 kg or 12 kg (get-ups, windmills, snatches, presses).

Rep ranges are more likely to be 10 or so with kettlebell, vs. 3-5 with barbell. Of course that could be done differently or opposite, but it's less common. (One notable exception is heavy kettlebell swings or snatches, 5 or so reps per repeat, for A+A).

Range of motion is huge. For the most part, the barbell limits motion to the sagittal plane. With the kettlebell you can do loaded movement in much more creative ways.

Rep speed needs some distinction -- but on average I would agree. The typical kettlebell program is probably 50% ballistics (fast moves like swings, snatches, cleans) and 50% grinds (slow moves like press, get-up, squat). The typical barbell powerlifting program is 90% grinds with just a bit of speed work. However, the typical weightlifting program (snatch, C&J) would be more like 50% to 60% "ballistics" (though no one calls them that -- snatch, power snatch, clean, power clean, jerk) and 40% "grinds" (usually called strength work - squat, press, pulls, and accessories). So it depends on the barbell focus, there.

 

[Antti]

I would agree, but there's some nuance...

The barbell is almost universally is going to be a heavier weight. Other than just the bar which I only use for warm-up, the lowest weight I'm ever using with a barbell for any work sets is about 25 kg (power snatch, press). With a kettlebell, I can got some quality work in with as little as 10 kg or 12 kg (get-ups, windmills, snatches, presses).

Rep ranges are more likely to be 10 or so with kettlebell, vs. 3-5 with barbell. Of course that could be done differently or opposite, but it's less common. (One notable exception is heavy kettlebell swings or snatches, 5 or so reps per repeat, for A+A).

Range of motion is huge. For the most part, the barbell limits motion to the sagittal plane. With the kettlebell you can do loaded movement in much more creative ways.

Rep speed needs some distinction -- but on average I would agree. The typical kettlebell program is probably 50% ballistics (fast moves like swings, snatches, cleans) and 50% grinds (slow moves like press, get-up, squat). The typical barbell powerlifting program is 90% grinds with just a bit of speed work. However, the typical weightlifting program (snatch, C&J) would be more like 50% to 60% "ballistics" (though no one calls them that -- snatch, power snatch, clean, power clean, jerk) and 40% "grinds" (usually called strength work - squat, press, pulls, and accessories). So it depends on the barbell focus, there.

I agree, that if you buy a 20kg barbell, it will always be at least 20kg. That said, there are lighter ones. But I agree, it's a given in the typical situation. However, I understand in the original context a heavier load was desirable.

When it come to bilateral vs unilateral training I don't think the barbell really is that limiting. I've done plenty of one arm presses and single leg deadlifts with one, something typical to my earlier kettlebell training as well.

When it comes to rep ranges, speed, loading, etc., I personally don't get it. I look at a textbook where we have guidelines for development of speed, speed strength, strength speed, strength endurance, absolute strength, etc. Nowhere do they say use this for this job, they just tell relative intensity, rep ranges, freshness, intention, etc. A tool is a tool. There's nothing magical about the kettlebell, or the barbell. We don't have a hammer and a screwdriver, they're all hammers.

 

[watchnerd]

I think a big part of the results are the 2 different tools engender different rep ranges, range of motion and rep speed.

I'm not following you on this one. I can make a barbell as light as 20 kg / 10 kg per hand.

Most of my KBs are >10 kg.

And I can micro-load the barbell in a way I can't with KBs.

I can also do high rep and high tempo with a barbell if I wish.

I can also do ballistics with a barbell.

When I do warm up snatches with an empty barbell, the 20 kg is almost a light as my lightest KB pair (2 x 8 kg).

 

[watchnerd]

For the most part, the barbell limits motion to the sagittal plane.

Landmine work.

 

[Sauli]

I just deleted long off topic comment. Learn double kettlebells first and then add some barbell lifts. I think squats and rack pulls(much safer than deadlifts and health was one goal) are enough. Most people don't need barbells for upper body work...

If you can press 48kg 10 reps, do 20 pull ups then you could, but after that it's not training for staying healthy and feeling good.

 

[Nate]

Landmine work.

Landmine is anchored. Single KB will give you more variety of movement patterns with single exercises than BB. Consider 1 hand snatch or TGU. Its not to say its better or worse, its just a different tool. Can have similar uses, but nuance differences nonetheless.

 

[watchnerd]

Landmine is anchored. Single KB will give you more variety of movement patterns with single exercises than BB. Consider 1 hand snatch or TGU. Its not to say its better or worse, its just a different tool. Can have similar uses, but nuance differences nonetheless.

Sure.

But it does allow work in other planes than sagittal.

And for some motions (arcing), I prefer it.

Although I like maces even better.

 

[jayjo]

I'm not following you on this one. I can make a barbell as light as 20 kg / 10 kg per hand.

Most of my KBs are >10 kg.

And I can micro-load the barbell in a way I can't with KBs.

I can also do high rep and high tempo with a barbell if I wish.

I can also do ballistics with a barbell.

When I do warm up snatches with an empty barbell, the 20 kg is almost a light as my lightest KB pair (2 x 8 kg).

You quoted my comment which uses the word "engender". I did not use the work "require". Of course you can use any tool you want in any way you want. The point is the post started with someone asking which tool to use to move toward a certain goal. And I offered my OPINION. I feel like this has degenerated into an argument. I do NOT have a facebook or instagram account because I have no interest in arguing with people. I like offering comments, opinions and learning things about fitness. I'm sure you can do many creative things with barbells, but in general, barbells are used my most people a certain way that is different from the way most people use a kettlebell. You can use a wrench to bang a nail in, but a hammer is what most people use for that goal.

 

[watchnerd]

Of course you can use any tool you want in any way you want.

Exactly!

A lot is the programming, not the tool choice, as @Antti said.

 

[Antti]

I'll also share a point about viewpoints. Often on the forum, when it comes to barbell training, people refer to whatever mainstream barbell training they see people do wherever.

However, when they talk about kettlebells, it's not whatever mainstream kettlebell training people do in group classes or on Instagram. It's intelligent training.

Why isn't barbell training held to the same standard?

 

[stevein7]

Repeating Geoff Neupert's Giant program three times helped me to understand how much of a training effect can be achieved with only 30 min three times a week. I like density training now. You set a timer and don't worry about counting reps and sets except for a baseline and when you finish a program. I do that with chinup-dip supersets. As many as I can do in 20 min without sacrificing form.

Generally speaking, if you can work out for more than an hour, then the work rate is probably lacking. Working out more frequently at high intensity but less time will probably work better for you. Age, training experience etc. are all factors. I am talking about a normal population.

Geoff's advice is basically to adjust the time and intensity in relation to the weekly frequency. Therefore, if you work out everyday then 20-30 min would be sufficient. If you want to work out 5 times a week then 45 min would be fine. I forget the exact numbers but basically you just figure out what you can recover from and sustain. As Geoff and others state, you may have to adjust to what else is going on in your life, so I take advantage of a low stress workweek, or a particularly good day of sleep or whatever at my age and push harder on those days. There are many sophisticated training programs, but none of it matters for a busy, professional, middle-aged dad, if I am not up to it that day and can't recover. I don't plan rest days, strictly. They tend to "happen" to me. I take them when I have to. I do have a plan but I also train intuitively as Brett Jones calls it.

The longer the workout, the more likely we are to take longer breaks or drag it out. It is like work. The more time you have the longer a task will take. Hard deadlines can help. SF principles of heavyish repeat sets of low reps with adequate recovery can still let you get in a lot of volume. Geoff N. and others argue that heavish, explosive, low rep sets can even benefit fat loss goals as they target faster twitch muscle fibers. That is one reason I like the double KB.

What most people do is they have a particular length of time that they workout and it is the same regardless of the weekly frequency. However, our bodies can only recover from so much work. It is better to think of total quality hours per week and then divide that into what makes sense in terms of frequency and other life factors. The size of the pie is fixed. The issue is how many pieces will you slice it into this week?

By the way, if you are just starting deadlift then I recommend repeat singles or doubles with short rest periods or cluster sets. It is good practice to reset more often, as the setup is particularly critical to DL. I almost always see form suffer when people do sets of five or ten. The hinge creeps up and the ROM decreases as fatigue sets in. or people start to fail to lockout. properly.

It works for me. Those younger and/or with specific athletic goals and greater recovery and time may have more options to consider.

Sorry, confused you for the OP

I am 57, retired, nothing much to do that I dont want to do. I need to find purpose and the hour a day training gives me that. as well as more intellectal pursuits. I struggle with this I do recognise rest is very important, but generally the desire to workout every day wins. I take the odd day off. I think there are may benefits to daily exercise and its not all about 1RM.

 

[Hrungnir]

I’m the bulkiest I’ve ever been on double kettlebells, far more than when I did CrossFit or Starting Strength/GOMAD.

I bet if you did double kettlebells and GOMAD you would be a pretty thicc tree stump.

 

[Geoff Neupert]

@njrick1,

Great to hear about your success with your 40kg.

Obviously late to the party here, but the answer to your question also depends on:

1. Your training history and training age
2. Your injury history
3. The amount of time you have allotted for training

My $0.02:

The barbell is more demanding and punishing on your body if you have any sort of injury history and don't have plenty of time before and after training for recovery and restoration work. It most certainly can be done, you just have to be more mindful if this is the case. I've experienced this firsthand and have a deep background in barbell lifting.

Double KB work on the other hand tends to be more forgiving on the body, which, again, based upon the points above, looks like it would fit better with your goals.

People always argue that barbell training is better for "getting stronger."

I used to teach at the RKC and SFG certs. We had plenty of strong powerlifters come through who were humbled by both single and double KB work.

So, at the end of the day, my simple response is, "How strong do you think you'd be if you could Clean + Press a pair of 48kg kettlebells ten times?"

Hope this helps.

 

[njrick1]

@njrick1,

Great to hear about your success with your 40kg.

Obviously late to the party here, but the answer to your question also depends on:

1. Your training history and training age
2. Your injury history
3. The amount of time you have allotted for training

My $0.02:

The barbell is more demanding and punishing on your body if you have any sort of injury history and don't have plenty of time before and after training for recovery and restoration work. It most certainly can be done, you just have to be more mindful if this is the case. I've experienced this firsthand and have a deep background in barbell lifting.

Double KB work on the other hand tends to be more forgiving on the body, which, again, based upon the points above, looks like it would fit better with your goals.

People always argue that barbell training is better for "getting stronger."

I used to teach at the RKC and SFG certs. We had plenty of strong powerlifters come through who were humbled by both single and double KB work.

So, at the end of the day, my simple response is, "How strong do you think you'd be if you could Clean + Press a pair of 48kg kettlebells ten times?"

Hope this helps.

This makes a lot of sense!

1. My training history is overwhelmingly kettlebell and body weight with virtually no barbell experience. Although I would have to learn double kettlebell lifts, I suspect my single kettlebell training would carry over better than it would to barbell training. I also have an SFG trainer to help me.
2. I have no serious injury history. I have had a period of patellar tendonitis but working with my SFG trainer to work on my mobility fixed the issue! That being said, my main goal in lifting is to be able to stay active and injury free for the rest of my life.
3. My time allotted for training is significantly limited. I have two jobs, a family, and a house. I also like to run and play tennis in addition to strength training. Sleep is non-negotiable.

 

[Gypsyplumber]

This makes a lot of sense!

1. My training history is overwhelmingly kettlebell and body weight with virtually no barbell experience. Although I would have to learn double kettlebell lifts, I suspect my single kettlebell training would carry over better than it would to barbell training. I also have an SFG trainer to help me.
2. I have no serious injury history. I have had a period of patellar tendonitis but working with my SFG trainer to work on my mobility fixed the issue! That being said, my main goal in lifting is to be able to stay active and injury free for the rest of my life.
3. My time allotted for training is significantly limited. I have two jobs, a family, and a house. I also like to run and play tennis in addition to strength training. Sleep is non-negotiable.

I think for you at this point in time, the learning curve is going to be a lot to switch to a barbell right now …not that it can’t be done or that it’s not awesome and beneficial but there is technique that needs to be learned to complete the Olympic lifts safely. Unless you wanna go to CrossFit style just go grab a barbell and snatch it as many times as you can as heavy as you can in a little amount of time as possible with very little snatching experience lol

I think you will find Double Kettlebell work to be awesome. It was a game changer for me I don’t really have any major strength goals I’m not lifting for anything other than life and health and mental clarity so it works just fine for me.