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An often cited claim about kettlebells...True or False?

Alaska80

Level 6 Valued Member
Just curious. This was a recent excerpt from one of Geoff Neupert's emails:

[Most of us got into KB training because we bought into the concept that we could do more, with less.

And, if you recall, that was the original premise of the Soviet/Russian research studies back in the late 1980s, kettlebell training by itself:

[+] Strengthened barbell lifts <---------- This is what my question is on

[+] Decreased times in sprints and running endurance events <------ Have seen this to be true in my training

[+] Improved power outputs in jumps <------ No noticeable increase or decrease, I seem to maintain power in this area with my general training regardless


Much of that research was based on the single KB Snatch (LEVEL 2) and the long cycle (double KB) Clean + Jerk (LEVEL 4) and if I recall correctly, they used LEVEL 5 programming.]

Now, I understand Geoff knows more about programming and strength training than I ever will. I have nothing but respect for the man. This is a statement though that was originally published by Pavel and has been thrown out by numerous KB gurus.

I LOVE double KB work and think the DBL LCCJ is the best "one" exercise in existence. However, from my personal experience; EVERYTIME I have trained exclusively with KB's my barbell lifts got weaker when I returned to them. Not stronger.

My question is has anyone at the I/A level experienced an increase in their BB strength after a pure block of DBL KB's? Am I missing something?
 
Depends on the bb lift I think…

After not doing a single bench press in 5 years. I was able to bench 225 for 5 (above what I was doing 5 years prior). In the time using kbs (2 years) I did a lot of Kb OHP.

Similarly, my bb OHP was 135 for 5. Again, after not touching a bb in over 5 years.

Squat however was shocking. I couldn’t even hit 10 reps with 135. Partly I believe this to be attributed to my anatomy/mechanics a bit (6’6 with very long legs and arms). Either way, 135 was supposed to be a 15-20 rep warm up. Not so.
 
There are a lot of variables to contend with. So, "it depends".

If you are weak and relatively untrained at barbell lifts to begin with, it's very likely that some intense training with kettlebells (or TRX, bodyweight, bands, etc) would be enough to show a jump in strength when you returned the barbell.

This is all commonsense, I think. Is there something more you were looking for?
 
I think (and have experienced) that kettlebell training can shore up barbell lifts, especially press and deadlift, and possibly maintain them as strong as where they are. Continuing to do those barbell lifts for a session at least a couple of times per month is important if this is the goal. I also feel like kettlebell training (and other types of training too) can increase one's potential when returning to barbell strength training or anything else for a block of training.
 
Lifting things will make you better at other lifting other things. The “WTH effect” has always irked me a bit because it shouldn’t be surprising that there is carryover effect, you don’t see this in other sports. BJJ guys don’t marvel that wrestling helps their gi game, CrossFitters aren’t surprised when their Fran time improves despite not doing Fran, etc.

It’s more about the modality than the implement. If you train heavy, you’ll get better at lifting heavy. If you train for power endurance, you’ll get better at power endurance. And these will transfer across implements with similar movement patterns.
 
Just curious. This was a recent excerpt from one of Geoff Neupert's emails:

[Most of us got into KB training because we bought into the concept that we could do more, with less.

And, if you recall, that was the original premise of the Soviet/Russian research studies back in the late 1980s, kettlebell training by itself:

[+] Strengthened barbell lifts <---------- This is what my question is on

[+] Decreased times in sprints and running endurance events <------ Have seen this to be true in my training

[+] Improved power outputs in jumps <------ No noticeable increase or decrease, I seem to maintain power in this area with my general training regardless


Much of that research was based on the single KB Snatch (LEVEL 2) and the long cycle (double KB) Clean + Jerk (LEVEL 4) and if I recall correctly, they used LEVEL 5 programming.]

Now, I understand Geoff knows more about programming and strength training than I ever will. I have nothing but respect for the man. This is a statement though that was originally published by Pavel and has been thrown out by numerous KB gurus.

I LOVE double KB work and think the DBL LCCJ is the best "one" exercise in existence. However, from my personal experience; EVERYTIME I have trained exclusively with KB's my barbell lifts got weaker when I returned to them. Not stronger.

My question is has anyone at the I/A level experienced an increase in their BB strength after a pure block of DBL KB's? Am I missing something?
For context:

What size bells are you using for most of your training?

What are your barbell lifts on average?

How much strength did your barbell lifts dip?
 
I hadn't done bench press for almost 2 years while doing clean and press. Weights on that lift stayed about the same. When I went back to training it, it immediately started increasing.

I remember reading Geoff saying several times that for many lifts he would get people to do the lift with a barbell then do the bulk of the 'work' with a KB. Specifically, I believe he was talking about Olympic lifts. I took this to mean -- doing your normal form training for snatches with a barbell and then doing something like sets of 5-12 reps with kettlebells for more hypertrophy.

Or with your example of Bench Press. Say working up to a max effort in a particular rep range with barbell bench press then doing 15-20 min of work with clean and press.
 
From post-Pandemic (March 2020 thru about May 2020) I had only bodyweight and my array of 16KG, 24KG, and 32KG kettlebells to work with and went back into a Wendler 5/3/1 Cycle.

TLDR: Here were my results from the May 2020 Training Max test:
  1. I had a strength loss of 3.68% in the Bench Press and a 12.17% strength loss in the Squat. Silver lining to this cloud, however, even with the loss of strength in the Bench Press my adjusted training max is still two pounds higher than when I started in January.
  2. I lost no strength in the military press or deadlift.
 
It would be interesting to see a study on how it affects running performance, especially sprinting.
A classical claim is that olympic weightlifting exercises will be very beneficial, because weightlifters have insane starting speed.
But: I am not convinced that it will be a very efficient approach for most athletes, as merely learning those lifts will take a lot of time and specific training. Kettlebells, on the other hand, are easier to master in reasonable time.
 
From post-Pandemic (March 2020 thru about May 2020) I had only bodyweight and my array of 16KG, 24KG, and 32KG kettlebells to work with and went back into a Wendler 5/3/1 Cycle.

TLDR: Here were my results from the May 2020 Training Max test:


Out of curiosity, when you state a 3.68% loss in the bench and 12.17% loss in the squat. You're talking a back squat? Also what kinds of numbers are we talking here? eg. Is this a 200lb squat or a 300lb squat?

It's interesting too that your deadlift nor your press suffered. And then if I understand your post correctly, as soon as you were back to the barbell your strength ramped beyond your original strength a short while after your return?
 
Out of curiosity, when you state a 3.68% loss in the bench and 12.17% loss in the squat. You're talking a back squat? Also what kinds of numbers are we talking here? eg. Is this a 200lb squat or a 300lb squat?

It's interesting too that your deadlift nor your press suffered. And then if I understand your post correctly, as soon as you were back to the barbell your strength ramped beyond your original strength a short while after your return?
I'd have to have a look at my training logbook to say precise numbers. My heaviest squat ever was a single at 292.5 lbs in 2017.

I postulated that my zero strength losses for deadlift and press stemmed from the s***-ton of hinging from kettlebell ballistics and overhead lifting respectively.
 
I read somewhere that swinging 24s will get you to a 300lb deadlift (modest for a lot of trained lifters, but not light) on its own.
I do not believe this to be true and have not experienced comparable strength gains.

However… presses with 24 and 32 absolutely kept my bench and OHP reasonable.

Benching got it better though.
 
I'd have to have a look at my training logbook to say precise numbers. My heaviest squat ever was a single at 292.5 lbs in 2017.

I postulated that my zero strength losses for deadlift and press stemmed from the s***-ton of hinging from kettlebell ballistics and overhead lifting respectively.
Thank you.

Very interesting. I haven't been into a gym or used a barbell since I got married in 2008. I never kept stats, nor really tried to hit my 1RM max. I do remember I could do an incline bench around 235 or so for 3 reps, obviously a little more on a flat bench. And my back squat was usually in the 245-265 range, but for reps. Like 8-12 reps in a set. But I was stupid back then. Lots of imbalances. Prone to injuries.

For a little over year now I've been back to using KB's and mainly just focusing on working toward Simple in S&S. I have a friend who was a regional bodybuilder, who is also my chiropractor. His place is ridiculous. He's in his 60's now, but used to maintain around a 450-500lb bench...his hip-sled he couldn't get enough weight on it and would make his wife sit on it. ROFL

But now you've got me curious. I think next time I'm out there I'll see about popping in there and checking where I'm at with a bar on the DL, squat and bench. Then perhaps later on toward the end of the year do it again. Probably won't go for 1RM, but just test a few sets of 3-5 reps.
 
I think it's lift dependent IMO... I noticed when I focus on my military presses with KB's my bench press/floor press never changes and shoulders actually feel better... Also heavy swings have improved my DL's... However, squats are a different story
 
Thank you.

Very interesting. I haven't been into a gym or used a barbell since I got married in 2008. I never kept stats, nor really tried to hit my 1RM max. I do remember I could do an incline bench around 235 or so for 3 reps, obviously a little more on a flat bench. And my back squat was usually in the 245-265 range, but for reps. Like 8-12 reps in a set. But I was stupid back then. Lots of imbalances. Prone to injuries.

For a little over year now I've been back to using KB's and mainly just focusing on working toward Simple in S&S. I have a friend who was a regional bodybuilder, who is also my chiropractor. His place is ridiculous. He's in his 60's now, but used to maintain around a 450-500lb bench...his hip-sled he couldn't get enough weight on it and would make his wife sit on it. ROFL

But now you've got me curious. I think next time I'm out there I'll see about popping in there and checking where I'm at with a bar on the DL, squat and bench. Then perhaps later on toward the end of the year do it again. Probably won't go for 1RM, but just test a few sets of 3-5 reps.

If I had to do it ALL over again I'd run S&S 2-3x/week with some aerobic roadwork/calisthenics on other days until I reached Timeless Simple before I started doing barbell work.

In my own case in this past year or so I've also taken to using 6x1 'Sorta Max' tests every now and again when using the barbell to get a sense of where I stand.

I'm mostly using barbells till I return home in the autumn after some Army Reserve related matters and back to 'ye olde kettlebell' (A Quick and Dead cycle).
 
I read somewhere that swinging 24s will get you to a 300lb deadlift (modest for a lot of trained lifters, but not light) on its own.
I do not believe this to be true and have not experienced comparable strength gains.

However… presses with 24 and 32 absolutely kept my bench and OHP reasonable.

Benching got it better though.
My n=1 experience with this..

My old gym decided to give out shirts for gents if you can deadlift 315 or 405, 225 for ladies..

Most of my students got their 315 deadlift shirts a week within the announcement of the incentive.. they were swinging anywhere from 24-40kg
 
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