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Other/Mixed New training block, Isometrics as primary resistance training

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
These compensation patterns exist in all of us. Our body is clever and is trying to shift us out of a position of discomfort and increasing weakness. If we start to rely on compensations then eventually we get hurt.
I would say - we move (or in this case 'we don't move') until we can't and then we compensate. We compensate until we can't and then something goes wrong.

So providing that nothing hurts at the time or afterwards, then some compensation isn't necessarily bad. You could argue that we are simply calling other muscle groups in to assist (like ripples in a pond), which could lead to a far more systemic reaction and output.

Regarding which version of extremes to use. Your idea is a great one - use both.

When I have watched videos from the likes of Tommy John (who trained with Jay - I believe). He talks about either using short range burts (pulling hard into position), or long holds failing downwards. He has video of his 5 minute lunge (ouch). I think he used to have a 'records' wall when he had a facility and all the times seemed to be based on max length holds.

Also - in the video it said to maximally pull into position (lunge) by flexing the back leg glute to open the hip....this is understand and on-board with. It also said to pull the front foot back to flex the front leg hamstring and hip flexor....pulling the front leg back does indeed flex the hamstring, but it doesn't fire the hip flexor because there is no real force going through the hip (outside of the force already being produced to hold you in that position).

Richard
Thanks for taking the time to help, very insightful points. It’s very cool to hear about this stuff from people who’ve used it.

I read my previous message and realised it came off a bit wrong. I meant to say that a lot of material seems to point towards holding until failure like you described. In addition I’ve heard a bunch of people also emphasise the posture and maximal contraction, but still until failure. Only a few bits mention the sub-maximal type of scheme, although when I’ve used it, I’ve usually reached failure in the later sets anyway.
 
Thanks for taking the time to help, very insightful points. It’s very cool to hear about this stuff from people who’ve used it.

I read my previous message and realised it came off a bit wrong. I meant to say that a lot of material seems to point towards holding until failure like you described. In addition I’ve heard a bunch of people also emphasise the posture and maximal contraction, but still until failure. Only a few bits mention the sub-maximal type of scheme, although when I’ve used it, I’ve usually reached failure in the later sets anyway.
I recall Rob Assise talking about sub max days. So to put it into some kind of weekly set up:
Monday - max holds
Tuesday - 50% of Monday
Thursday 75% of Monday
Friday 25% of Monday

Or something like that....and when I say max holds in my head I meant max length holds (failing downwards)....but I guess you could use the max contraction version as well or maybe even alternate week by week.

Richard
 
I recall Rob Assise talking about sub max days. So to put it into some kind of weekly set up:
Monday - max holds
Tuesday - 50% of Monday
Thursday 75% of Monday
Friday 25% of Monday

Or something like that....and when I say max holds in my head I meant max length holds (failing downwards)....but I guess you could use the max contraction version as well or maybe even alternate week by week.

Richard

I'm going to steal this!
 
One of these months I’ll have to run a 4-6 week block of extreme isos. In a vacuum, to my understanding, they don’t sound like they would be as effective as long length MVC.

The way the video describes them, the muscle being stretched is opposite the one that’s exerting, and that one by default is NOT at a longer length. The claim that you can train a muscle at the same time it is recovering also sounds dodgy.

Has anyone done these and tested strength and size vs a standard before/after?

I've added strength and size with extreme isometrics. I SEEM to add strength much quicker with yielding isos, but I'm pretty sure yielding isos were building strength in my strong areas and extreme isos are building them in my weak areas, so it's a deceptive thing. Extreme isos' real value is clearing up dysfunction for me and strengthening / repatterning the muscles that drop out of heavy movements.

My lengthened muscles exert during the holds, but nothing near an MVC.

Just my two cents.
 
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I've added strength and size with extreme isometrics. I SEEM to add strength much quicker with yielding isos, but I'm pretty sure yielding isos were building strength in my strong areas and extreme isos are building them in my weak areas, so it's a deceptive thing. Extreme isos' real value is clearing up dysfunction for me and strengthening / repatterning the muscles that drop out of heavy movements.

My lengthened muscles exert during the holds, but nothing near an MVC.

Just my two cents.
Currently I’ve gone back and am running 6 weeks using MVC holds mixed with isotonics at about 12-20 repmax loading. I need to understand a little more about how these might play together, and finally cross this off my board. Back even before I started this whole experiment I theorized this would be a good avenue - time to walk it through.
 
Currently I’ve gone back and am running 6 weeks using MVC holds mixed with isotonics at about 12-20 repmax loading. I need to understand a little more about how these might play together, and finally cross this off my board. Back even before I started this whole experiment I theorized this would be a good avenue - time to walk it through.
I have been incorporating isos, often supersetted with 15 to 30 rep dumbbell exercises, does seem like a good combination.
On a different note, I had the idea of doing a bent over row iso, close to stretch position but laying on my front on a bench. Got set up and started to ramp up the effort and suddenly felt something like a pop / movement in ine of my upper left ribs. It hurt and I immediately stopped. Nothing seems out of place and still some mild soreness which hurts more when doing chin ups. Not going to be doing that one again! Shame as it seemed a good idea at the time.
 
I have been incorporating isos, often supersetted with 15 to 30 rep dumbbell exercises, does seem like a good combination.
On a different note, I had the idea of doing a bent over row iso, close to stretch position but laying on my front on a bench. Got set up and started to ramp up the effort and suddenly felt something like a pop / movement in ine of my upper left ribs. It hurt and I immediately stopped. Nothing seems out of place and still some mild soreness which hurts more when doing chin ups. Not going to be doing that one again! Shame as it seemed a good idea at the time.
Ease into all new things!
I’ve experimented with getting more lateral pull, but seem to get better results keeping my elbows fairly close, palms up.
When doing metric/tonic mix, have settled with bent 2 hand row combined with one hand rows.
 
Currently I’ve gone back and am running 6 weeks using MVC holds mixed with isotonics at about 12-20 repmax loading. I need to understand a little more about how these might play together, and finally cross this off my board. Back even before I started this whole experiment I theorized this would be a good avenue - time to walk it through.
How are you structuring the workouts and which isotonics are you using?
Isometrics and isotonics in same workouts?
Isometric deadlift and isotonic deadlift etc.?
Look forward to hearing your thoughts / results after 6 weeks!
Only isometrics are still making me feel great, so I'm just sticking to them at the moment.
 
How are you structuring the workouts and which isotonics are you using?
Isometrics and isotonics in same workouts?
Isometric deadlift and isotonic deadlift etc.?
Look forward to hearing your thoughts / results after 6 weeks!
Only isometrics are still making me feel great, so I'm just sticking to them at the moment.
Currently am running 2 sets of:
- 20 second MVC,
- 60 second rest
- 30 second AMRAP with about a 12-20 repmax load.

Take two minutes between exercises.

The weight is a bit lighter than spec’d for squat and hinge at 150lbs of sand, but partially compensated by having to shoulder it for squats, and pulling it from the floor for the hinge work.

Is striking how much heavier the second isotonic set becomes.
 
Currently am running 2 sets of:
- 20 second MVC,
- 60 second rest
- 30 second AMRAP with about a 12-20 repmax load.

Take two minutes between exercises.

The weight is a bit lighter than spec’d for squat and hinge at 150lbs of sand, but partially compensated by having to shoulder it for squats, and pulling it from the floor for the hinge work.

Is striking how much heavier the second isotonic set becomes.
Good stuff, be interesting to see whether you keep the isotonic stuff in after 6 weeks / if the isometrics help with wear and tear from isotonics.
 
I once tried the extreme Isometrics approach , too for a few month exclusively, till I get to the Lunge hold for 4 minutes and the pu for three minutes. It felt good, I felt refreshed and ready, but after retetest crawling and overhead press, I had almost to no benefits. I even lost general strength. Now I’m back to crawling and it’s deconstructions, which has a nice carry over to TGU and carries and squats and push ups. I think the extreme Isometrics have just a little carryover to other work. If your work is in an equal range of motion it could work (sprinting, bench pressing). A cardiovascular component was Thread too.
 
I once tried the extreme Isometrics approach , too for a few month exclusively, till I get to the Lunge hold for 4 minutes and the pu for three minutes. It felt good, I felt refreshed and ready, but after retetest crawling and overhead press, I had almost to no benefits. I even lost general strength. Now I’m back to crawling and it’s deconstructions, which has a nice carry over to TGU and carries and squats and push ups. I think the extreme Isometrics have just a little carryover to other work. If your work is in an equal range of motion it could work (sprinting, bench pressing). A cardiovascular component was Thread too.
I guess it’s a different kind of force production? Maybe see more carry over from overcoming isometrics?

On crawling: I really wanted to like this, but it put a lot of strain on my wrists and knees, ultimately leaving me feeling worse. Also form breakdown was happening a lot. Guess slow + keeping tension is the answer to that, but then the stress on the muscles didn’t feel enough.

Would like to hear your thoughts / advice on crawls if they’re working for you?
 
I guess it’s a different kind of force production? Maybe see more carry over from overcoming isometrics?

On crawling: I really wanted to like this, but it put a lot of strain on my wrists and knees, ultimately leaving me feeling worse. Also form breakdown was happening a lot. Guess slow + keeping tension is the answer to that, but then the stress on the muscles didn’t feel enough.

Would like to hear your thoughts / advice on crawls if they’re working for you?
My tendons an joints get irritated from crawling in the past. I worked up to 1x 10 minutes nonstop. So, I deconstructed crawling in one leg wall sits, one leg planks and one arm planks fore some months, now I am crawling again. It has in my opinion better carryover to other movements like squats, push-ups and TGUs
 
I once tried the extreme Isometrics approach , too for a few month exclusively, till I get to the Lunge hold for 4 minutes and the pu for three minutes. It felt good, I felt refreshed and ready, but after retetest crawling and overhead press, I had almost to no benefits. I even lost general strength. Now I’m back to crawling and it’s deconstructions, which has a nice carry over to TGU and carries and squats and push ups. I think the extreme Isometrics have just a little carryover to other work. If your work is in an equal range of motion it could work (sprinting, bench pressing). A cardiovascular component was Thread too.
My gut feeling is that the extreme isos need to be put into a comprehensive program to get the benefit. The existing research isn’t very favorable for super slow training. I recall listening to a blog where some trainers mentioned using extreme iso several times per day as a restorative. To me this says they are not tapping into reserves much or the challenge becomes stagnant once a level of proficiency is achieved. Then you’re back to using them with other means for best effect.

But again, this is 100% specualtion on my part, lacking any direct experience.
 
My gut feeling is that the extreme isos need to be put into a comprehensive program to get the benefit. The existing research isn’t very favorable for super slow training. I recall listening to a blog where some trainers mentioned using extreme iso several times per day as a restorative. To me this says they are not tapping into reserves much or the challenge becomes stagnant once a level of proficiency is achieved. Then you’re back to using them with other means for best effect.

But again, this is 100% specualtion on my part, lacking any direct experience.

I know Schroeder programs them as part of a progressive series (this looks slightly incorrect as I type it, but it's the general idea):

1. Hold position (extreme isos)
2. Absorb force (depth drops)
3. Redirect force (or is this generate force? Anyways, plyos and conventional weightlifting go here)

I trained with his app for a little while and it was really interesting to see what was prescribed. For beginners, it was mostly shorter sets and light (I totally forget the term for this) weight catches for high reps.
 
Although this anecdote could be pure nonsense for the vast majority of users - I had a distance client that I introduced to ISO's alongside other forms of movement - this was waaaay before I discovered extremes or anything remotely resembling an 'official' approach to ISO's....he would simply use:
Hang
Bottom of pushup
Wall sit (that later became lunge)

He did 30 seconds of each, then 20, then 10. A simple daily 'switch on'. He did this 1-2 times a day.

Tonight with a class I did....
2 rounds of 30 seconds active ISO's:

Lunge (each leg)
Bottom of pushup
Prone elbows pulled high (in a position to do a knuckle pushup, squeeze elbows towards each other and then pull them as high as possible - lifting hands off the floor).

On the 'active lunges' - let's be honest even a more 'passive' lunge held for time isn't passive....but the level of fiber recruitment isn't super high until the latter stages.
The active 'pull as hard as you can' lunge just calls on these fibers straight away. Hence the shorter time frame.

I haven't done a huge amount of active, max effort ISO's outside of Timed Static Contractions with weight/bands. The active bodyweight ISO's remind me a lot of the Timed Static Contractions.

What I found with the lunge is that pulling back with the front leg is fine, but you can't really ramp up into it. It's almost just a 'set your position' type of idea (keeps the knee over the foot).
Squeezing the back glute and quad hard to open the hip and knee is where the money is. Doing this really fires the hip flexor eccentrically at the same time as the glute concentrically.
Is this more powerful than pulling the back leg forwards in this positon (which fires the hip flexor concentrically from a lengthened position)?? I don't know, but it works well.

I also found that sometimes the 'switching on' or the really 'click' of the position isn't always found until the mid to latter stages of say a 30 second set were fatigue is starting to really kick on. At this point when you try and redouble your efforts to pull into position, either things don't happen or something just clicks and you kind of just 'feel' all the relevant musculature a little more.

Sorry to ramble on.

Richard
 
Couple of questions…

1) Miller which were the studies you looked at to see that training at longer muscle lengths trains all shorter muscle lengths too?

I found an aggregate study that says training at long muscle lengths are better for hypertrophy and carry over to dynamic exercise better than shorter lengths: Isometric training and long-term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review - PubMed

2) Does anyone know - or can have a guess - what type of exercise isometrics is heart rate wise? Aerobic? The newer stuff Pavel talks about in S&S? I just notice that - even when breathing throughout - ISOs really get my heart rate up.

3) For the extreme iso guys here: If I was going to experiment with extreme isometrics what’s the best person / resource to look at to work out how to structure it?

Also, I upgraded to a WorldFit Iso-Trainer - better grip on handles, handles rotate and position better, thicker straps, easier to change length with the clasps. Recommend if anyone is in the market for a new trainer.

One more thing: I bought a crane scale, a bigger chopping board (leverage feels much better!) and a rolling pin… DIY 300 kg deadlift device / iso-chain alternative!

Will post some pics / thoughts after I’ve tried it out properly.

Also be interesting to see how crane scale readings translate to dynamic lifts if I get in a gym for a test at some point.
 
Couple of questions…

1) Miller which were the studies you looked at to see that training at longer muscle lengths trains all shorter muscle lengths too?

I found an aggregate study that says training at long muscle lengths are better for hypertrophy and carry over to dynamic exercise better than shorter lengths: Isometric training and long-term adaptations: Effects of muscle length, intensity, and intent: A systematic review - PubMed

2) Does anyone know - or can have a guess - what type of exercise isometrics is heart rate wise? Aerobic? The newer stuff Pavel talks about in S&S? I just notice that - even when breathing throughout - ISOs really get my heart rate up.

3) For the extreme iso guys here: If I was going to experiment with extreme isometrics what’s the best person / resource to look at to work out how to structure it?

Also, I upgraded to a WorldFit Iso-Trainer - better grip on handles, handles rotate and position better, thicker straps, easier to change length with the clasps. Recommend if anyone is in the market for a new trainer.

One more thing: I bought a crane scale, a bigger chopping board (leverage feels much better!) and a rolling pin… DIY 300 kg deadlift device / iso-chain alternative!

Will post some pics / thoughts after I’ve tried it out properly.

Also be interesting to see how crane scale readings translate to dynamic lifts if I get in a gym for a test at some point.
 
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