Kettlebell Current thoughts on exercise theory

[Kozushi]

I would alter this thought a little to say that cardio helps the body recover from intense training and volume of any flavor in order to help optimize your hormones to handle a more diverse diet.

The world was flat until it was round; we don't know what our bodies are truly designed for and maybe never will. Perhaps it's sitting at a desk for 8 hours per day and it just took us a long time to figure it out and we're really out of shape.

Intensity + volume + frequency = training load. Only 2 of the 3 can be high at a time and 2 of the 3 should be high at a time.

One can add light bulbs to the circuit, turn on more of the existing light bulbs, or use higher wattage bulbs. Each is developed through different means of adaptation to specific stimulus that is likely different for everyone.

I simply disagree

Heavier weights can do it, we can't

If you look at a human body it's about half leg. What are legs used for? Walking and similar. I think we can conclude that walking, running are a major part of what our bodies were designed for. I personally don't think that legs are designed primarily for recovery exercises for heavy lifters, hahaha! But yes, we have multiple uses for every body part. Picking up heavy things is also something the legs are designed to help with, clearly. I'd not think it's a primary role though given that we need to move about in this world to survive.

Keep in mind that I'm doing 3-4 nights of judo a week, so I do find that I can't keep up a proper weight lifting routine. I'm on S&S 2-3 times a week although on occasion only once a week sometimes and if sick nonce.

 

[Kozushi]

Lifting humans...That's why you don't need a lot of weight lifting. A human is about 200 pounds. If you repeatedly dominate 200 pounds and push it around many times a week, I guess that will get you pretty strong. That's also why going too heavy in the gym is not helpful. If you are tired, that 200 pounds human will be harder to move around.

It shows how not the most brilliant I am to have had to be told this for me to realize it!

After reading your comment I thought back to times when I had to stop judo because of an injury for a few months or longer, and how fat and weak I got!

At judo I am lifting, pushing and pulling roughly 200lbs humans for 90 minutes or 2 hours at a time! This also might explain why I can/could get to a certain weight in kettlebells and barbells quickly, and also at bodyweight exercises like the one arm pushup. Heck, we have to do one arm pushups all the time in judo to get out of tricky situations on the ground!

And yes, I've noticed that doing heavy weights before judo or sometimes even the night before judo if I'm pushing it with deadlifts or something, does make me feel stiff and weak for judo the next day.

In any case, this is why I'm always coming back to these Strongfirst forums - I learn something useful every single time I log in!

Exercise science is quite involved!

 

[Kozushi]

Does anyone disagree that running builds and maintains a reasonable level of strength, mainly in the legs of course but also in the core and throughout the entire body to some extant; walking perhaps less so, but it still does build and maintain physical strength over and above mere cardio?

 

[IonRod]

1. I think the "fat"ness comes from letting our natural locomotive muscles go to pot by not walking or running. I've found for myself that I'll weigh the same either way but if I walk or run, moreso if I run at least a significant amount, that my whole body is tighter and thinner.

Well, yes, losing fat will make you feel "tighter", but where is the line? How much fat is too much? Why is having a certain amount of fat from lifting heavy weights a bad thing? You say you feel "thinner", but why is that the desired feeling? How about feeling "stronger", "solid", "bigger"?

I asked a former motorcycle gang member about how to fight. He said that people don't lose fights, they give up. This is something I've kept in mind about life in general.

It sounds like a nice piece of "folk wisdom", but I am afraid it falls apart under minimal scrutiny. If your opponent is more skilled and/or stronger than you, you will lose the fight. It doesn't matter how much "not giving up" is in you. A clean punch to the head, a tight choke and you will go to sleep no matter what. I know this is a metaphor for life, but I think it doesn't apply in life either. Same way - life can throw such a huge wrench in your engine that you will suffer enormous consequences. Yes, it is important in those moments to not give up, but you should not rely on strength of will alone, you should build you "life fighting skills", be those social, financial or physical. A better saying would be that "sometimes people lose fights and sometimes they just give up, both things can happen" although it doesn't sound as good.

Your legs are made for walking and running. They can also squat, although they weren't made to squat all day whereas they were made to walk all day.

Sure, but that's not how we train squatting. We don't squat all day, we squat for a very brief period of time during training to initiate strength building processes in our body. No matter how sedentary your lifestyle is, you do walk more than you squat, so both modalities are trained correspondingly. We are made to walk "all day", so we do walk more than we squat and we squat for a brief period of time with heavy weights.

My overall point to this thread is that weights without locomotion exercise are deficient, but that locomotion exercise (walking, running) is best complemented with weight lifting to some degree or other.

Sorry if I missed it, but how do you define a locomotion exercise and more importantly what makes an exercise not a locomotion one?

 

[jef]

Does anyone disagree that running builds and maintains a reasonable level of strength, mainly in the legs of course but also in the core and throughout the entire body to some extant; walking perhaps less so, but it still does build and maintain physical strength over and above mere cardio?

Yes, I disagree.
Someone completely untrained will increase strength by just running, or even walking. Because they are lacking strength, any stimulus will make them stronger.
But take a man who can squat a wheel (60kg, 135 pounds, still quite light for a man), the strength required to walk/run is only a fraction of what he is capable of. He will not gain more strength by running.

I did both. I used to run. It did not help me to squat when I started (hey, those 60kg were so heavy).
Now, I have reached entry-level strength. In March, I could go for a run for one hour, even while not doing a single run in 4 years. Easy and no soreness.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

Does anyone disagree that running builds and maintains a reasonable level of strength, mainly in the legs of course but also in the core and throughout the entire body to some extant; walking perhaps less so, but it still does build and maintain physical strength over and above mere cardio?

It depends on the health and strength of the person in question as well as how 'a reasonable level of strength' is defined: For someone undergoing rehabilitation for a serious injury, 'reasonable' might mean getting out of bed without assistance, for an NFL athelete 'reasonable' involves bench pressing 200lbs for reps.

That being said, I think that everyone who can walk should walk.

 

[jef]

That being said, I think that everyone who can walk should walk.

Yes, me too.
Walk every time you can. For some people, at first, that is even my only prescription.

 

[Antti]

Does anyone disagree that running builds and maintains a reasonable level of strength, mainly in the legs of course but also in the core and throughout the entire body to some extant; walking perhaps less so, but it still does build and maintain physical strength over and above mere cardio?

I disagree.

What does strength in the lower body mean to you? How do you measure it?

I think strength is about fighting against gravity, and the more you can do it, the stronger you are. The exercise to test this is classically thought to be the back squat. I think about three or four wheels qualifies one as strong. Now, how close to this standard does one get with just aerobic exercise?

 

[Steve Freides]

In March, I could go for a run for one hour, even while not doing a single run in 4 years. Easy and no soreness.

This will not be everyone's experience.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Does anyone disagree that running builds and maintains a reasonable level of strength, mainly in the legs of course but also in the core and throughout the entire body to some extant; walking perhaps less so, but it still does build and maintain physical strength over and above mere cardio?

Vague Statement

Running building and maintaining strength is dependent on the "Type of Running", how a program is written and preformed.

Endurance Running impedes and decreases strength and muscle mass in the legs. Research has demonstrated that it is "Sight Specific"; that meaning the muscle used are affected the most, losing strength and size.

Endurance Runner are a great example of athletes who are relatively week and are less able to maintain, let along increase, muscle mass.

Ironically, research demonstrated that Endurance Runner who stopped their training, gained muscle mass.

Research shows High Intensity Interval Training Cardio is both anaerobic and anaerobic. It increased endurance as well as increasing strength and muscle mass.

A great example are Sprinters; greater leg muscle mass and strength compared to Endurance Runners.

Walking does nothing in regard to maintaining strength, muscle mass, or increasing you endurance.

I am not sure how you come up with this stuff.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Weights are great if you're already doing "cardio" - walking, jogging etc. If not, you just get fat and strong but without good shape nor much in the way of endurance.

Weigh Training increases strength but does not mean you are NOT in good shape. That has more to do with how a resistance training program is written and executed, along with diet.

Our bodies are made mainly for walking and running, so these exercises get us in shape and train our hearts in the perfect way.

Again, a well written and executed Resistance Training Program will elicit this effect, as well.

"cardio" exercises like walking and running also grant strength gains and strength maintenance throughout the body - they aren't "just" for your heart and lungs.

To reiterate from my previous post, walking does little. Endurance Running decreases strength and muscle mass. specifically in the legs.

High Intensity Interval Training, paradoxically, is aerobic and anaerobic; increasing Strength, Power, Speed and Endurance.

You get get to a certain level of strength, like (roughly, depends on the individual) 1.5 bodyweight deadlift, bodyweight barbell squat, etc through technique mainly since our bodies are already capable of these "feats" naturally. To go significantly higher is possible but takes a lot of training and is hard to maintain.

The upper levels of Endurance, Strength, Power and Speed "take a lot of training and is hard to maintain".

The movement is not the muscle, thus training moves like the goblet squat with the kettlebell, even though nowhere near the weight a barbell squatter can squat, is a different movement pattern and uses different muscle systems in the body.

Strength Transfer

A individual who can Barbell Squat a heavy load is capable of performing a Heavy Goblet Squat.

An individual who can perform a Heavy Goblet Squat doesn't carry over that well in performing a Heavy Barbell Squat, for a multitude of reasons.

The Barbell Squat and Goblet Squat are excellent exercise that elicit different training effects.

This is also why kettlebell moves like the Turkish Getup and swing are nothing to scorn since they exercise muscles and movements that heavier weights cannot do.

Research by Dr Bret Contreras have demonstrated that the Turkish Getup is one of the most effective for the core.

Kettlebell Swing rivals the Power Output of the Olympic Movements.

How you write and preform Kettlebell Swings is the dependent factor (as with all exercises) of it being primarily a Power Training Movement or for Metabolic Training.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

I think we're getting a little bogged down here in this thread.

There are very few things we can say for certain, other than we'll all usually get better at what we practice, so long as the dose is enough but not too much.

I will disagree that walking does little - walking makes you better at walking, for a starter. I happen to love to walk and do it all year long. My wife, a school teacher who doesn't get to walk as much during the academic year as I do, ramps up her walking every Spring so that we can walk together more in the Summer. And I believe this next point is important - walking, for those of us of a certain age, even very relaxed walking, is real cardio. It may be Zone 1 or borderline Zone 2, but my resting pulse is around 50, and my relaxed walking pulse is around 95 or 100. That's not nothin'. My Polar Beat app says that anything that gets my pulse to the mid-80's is valid cardio - that seems OK to me. We do also have historical evidence of marathon runners a few decades ago using distance walking as part of their training - I can't remember the names now, but I know I've read this. I don't think it's wrong to say that walking builds walking strength, whatever walking strength may be.

What's missing in this conversation, for good reason I hasten to add, is a definition of "in shape" - what's a desirable outcome isn't going to be the same for everyone, and no one needs to have a single definition.

Add to this hot mess the fact that different training schemes, even using precisely the same movements, can yield widely varying results - then add to that the fact that some movements carry over to other movements and sports more than others, then add to that the fact that some goals aren't functional goals at all, their point being to perform whatever movements best effect certain changes in body composition, and, well, we aren't going to be able to say anything in general unless we restrict the conversation much more than we've restricted it in what I've read so far here.

-S-

 

[Antti]

I think we're getting a little bogged down here in this thread.

There are very few things we can say for certain, other than we'll all usually get better at what we practice, so long as the dose is enough but not too much.

I will disagree that walking does little - walking makes you better at walking, for a starter. I happen to love to walk and do it all year long. My wife, a school teacher who doesn't get to walk as much during the academic year as I do, ramps up her walking every Spring so that we can walk together more in the Summer. And I believe this next point is important - walking, for those of us of a certain age, even very relaxed walking, is real cardio. It may be Zone 1 or borderline Zone 2, but my resting pulse is around 50, and my relaxed walking pulse is around 95 or 100. That's not nothin'. My Polar Beat app says that anything that gets my pulse to the mid-80's is valid cardio - that seems OK to me. We do also have historical evidence of marathon runners a few decades ago using distance walking as part of their training - I can't remember the names now, but I know I've read this. I don't think it's wrong to say that walking builds walking strength, whatever walking strength may be.

What's missing in this conversation, for good reason I hasten to add, is a definition of "in shape" - what's a desirable outcome isn't going to be the same for everyone, and no one needs to have a single definition.

Add to this hot mess the fact that different training schemes, even using precisely the same movements, can yield widely varying results - then add to that the fact that some movements carry over to other movements and sports more than others, then add to that the fact that some goals aren't functional goals at all, their point being to perform whatever movements best effect certain changes in body composition, and, well, we aren't going to be able to say anything in general unless we restrict the conversation much more than we've restricted it in what I've read so far here.

-S-

I don't think anyone in this thread is putting down walking. It's just that somehow there's been born a notion that walking increases strength as a stand-alone training modality, which it obviously does not do, apart from the most extreme cases. So when some say that walking does nothing it's walking, per se, does nothing for strength. It is, however, good for our aerobic system and good for recovery.

 

[Kozushi]

Well, yes, losing fat will make you feel "tighter", but where is the line? How much fat is too much? Why is having a certain amount of fat from lifting heavy weights a bad thing? You say you feel "thinner", but why is that the desired feeling? How about feeling "stronger", "solid", "bigger"?



It sounds like a nice piece of "folk wisdom", but I am afraid it falls apart under minimal scrutiny. If your opponent is more skilled and/or stronger than you, you will lose the fight. It doesn't matter how much "not giving up" is in you. A clean punch to the head, a tight choke and you will go to sleep no matter what. I know this is a metaphor for life, but I think it doesn't apply in life either. Same way - life can throw such a huge wrench in your engine that you will suffer enormous consequences. Yes, it is important in those moments to not give up, but you should not rely on strength of will alone, you should build you "life fighting skills", be those social, financial or physical. A better saying would be that "sometimes people lose fights and sometimes they just give up, both things can happen" although it doesn't sound as good.



Sure, but that's not how we train squatting. We don't squat all day, we squat for a very brief period of time during training to initiate strength building processes in our body. No matter how sedentary your lifestyle is, you do walk more than you squat, so both modalities are trained correspondingly. We are made to walk "all day", so we do walk more than we squat and we squat for a brief period of time with heavy weights.



Sorry if I missed it, but how do you define a locomotion exercise and more importantly what makes an exercise not a locomotion one?

I agree with all that. The biker gang quote is just a metaphor, yes, but it's interesting because he was in a lot of fights and had that to say. He's now a Pastor if you can believe it!

Definitely training skills that favour thrival and survival are key. Just being stubborn doesn't cut it of course. Although having that determination helps us to train better.

I agree that most people in the world already walk enough to have that modality trained... except for many in North America who sit at home, in the car and at work. Those guys need to fit walking into their lives. But one way or another squatting is going to be good for you!!!

 

[Kozushi]

Yes, I disagree.
Someone completely untrained will increase strength by just running, or even walking. Because they are lacking strength, any stimulus will make them stronger.
But take a man who can squat a wheel (60kg, 135 pounds, still quite light for a man), the strength required to walk/run is only a fraction of what he is capable of. He will not gain more strength by running.

I did both. I used to run. It did not help me to squat when I started (hey, those 60kg were so heavy).
Now, I have reached entry-level strength. In March, I could go for a run for one hour, even while not doing a single run in 4 years. Easy and no soreness.

Okay but would you recommend that someone stop walking for exercise if they are lifting heavy? I am going to guess that you would not recommend this, and if I'm right it would mean that you actually agree with me.

 

[Kozushi]

I disagree.

What does strength in the lower body mean to you? How do you measure it?

I think strength is about fighting against gravity, and the more you can do it, the stronger you are. The exercise to test this is classically thought to be the back squat. I think about three or four wheels qualifies one as strong. Now, how close to this standard does one get with just aerobic exercise?

I'm thinking of the difference in movements and therefore muscular and cardio-vascular stimulation. Going up and down is just different from walking forward. My theory is that the muscles of the body are to a large degree intended for walking, and so if we're sedentary all day long and then just squat heavy stuff, we're letting parts of our musculature atrophy. We need walking to fill in those gaps. Now, if we're already getting regular walking into the day like walking to the subway etc, then we're having this base covered and we can forget about it and just focus on the heavy stuff alone.

 

[Kozushi]

Walking does nothing in regard to maintaining strength, muscle mass, or increasing you endurance.

I am not sure how you come up with this stuff.

Kenny Croxdale

By walking/hiking/running for exercise and noticing its effects on my judo performance and endurance, also changes in my physiology, also effects on my performance at S&S. For instance walking seems to make me better at parts of the TGU, especially the windmill part.

I have a very hard time believing that walking does nothing at all. If there is science on this I'd be intrigued. I'd "like to" think I could give up walking and just do S&S for instance, but I can't believe this would be a smart move.

 

[Kozushi]

Weigh Training increases strength but does not mean you are NOT in good shape. That has more to do with how a resistance training program is written and executed, along with diet.



Again, a well written and executed Resistance Training Program will elicit this effect, as well.



To reiterate from my previous post, walking does little. Endurance Running decreases strength and muscle mass. specifically in the legs.

High Intensity Interval Training, paradoxically, is aerobic and anaerobic; increasing Strength, Power, Speed and Endurance.



The upper levels of Endurance, Strength, Power and Speed "take a lot of training and is hard to maintain".



Strength Transfer

A individual who can Barbell Squat a heavy load is capable of performing a Heavy Goblet Squat.

An individual who can perform a Heavy Goblet Squat doesn't carry over that well in performing a Heavy Barbell Squat, for a multitude of reasons.

The Barbell Squat and Goblet Squat are excellent exercise that elicit different training effects.

This is also why kettlebell moves like the Turkish Getup and swing are nothing to scorn since they exercise muscles and movements that heavier weights cannot do.

Research by Dr Bret Contreras have demonstrated that the Turkish Getup is one of the most effective for the core.

Kettlebell Swing rivals the Power Output of the Olympic Movements.

How you write and preform Kettlebell Swings is the dependent factor (as with all exercises) of it being primarily a Power Training Movement or for Metabolic Training.

Kenny Croxdale

So, if I'm doing S&S, I'm doing one of a number of "optimal" programs to keep myself strong, fit and cardio-healthy; and I could dispense with walking entirely with no detriment to me?

 

[Kozushi]

Weigh Training increases strength but does not mean you are NOT in good shape. That has more to do with how a resistance training program is written and executed, along with diet.



Again, a well written and executed Resistance Training Program will elicit this effect, as well.



To reiterate from my previous post, walking does little. Endurance Running decreases strength and muscle mass. specifically in the legs.

High Intensity Interval Training, paradoxically, is aerobic and anaerobic; increasing Strength, Power, Speed and Endurance.



The upper levels of Endurance, Strength, Power and Speed "take a lot of training and is hard to maintain".



Strength Transfer

A individual who can Barbell Squat a heavy load is capable of performing a Heavy Goblet Squat.

An individual who can perform a Heavy Goblet Squat doesn't carry over that well in performing a Heavy Barbell Squat, for a multitude of reasons.

The Barbell Squat and Goblet Squat are excellent exercise that elicit different training effects.

This is also why kettlebell moves like the Turkish Getup and swing are nothing to scorn since they exercise muscles and movements that heavier weights cannot do.

Research by Dr Bret Contreras have demonstrated that the Turkish Getup is one of the most effective for the core.

Kettlebell Swing rivals the Power Output of the Olympic Movements.

How you write and preform Kettlebell Swings is the dependent factor (as with all exercises) of it being primarily a Power Training Movement or for Metabolic Training.

Kenny Croxdale

What could one say the goblet squat does that the barbell squat doesn't do?

 

[Kozushi]

I think we're getting a little bogged down here in this thread.

There are very few things we can say for certain, other than we'll all usually get better at what we practice, so long as the dose is enough but not too much.

I will disagree that walking does little - walking makes you better at walking, for a starter. I happen to love to walk and do it all year long. My wife, a school teacher who doesn't get to walk as much during the academic year as I do, ramps up her walking every Spring so that we can walk together more in the Summer. And I believe this next point is important - walking, for those of us of a certain age, even very relaxed walking, is real cardio. It may be Zone 1 or borderline Zone 2, but my resting pulse is around 50, and my relaxed walking pulse is around 95 or 100. That's not nothin'. My Polar Beat app says that anything that gets my pulse to the mid-80's is valid cardio - that seems OK to me. We do also have historical evidence of marathon runners a few decades ago using distance walking as part of their training - I can't remember the names now, but I know I've read this. I don't think it's wrong to say that walking builds walking strength, whatever walking strength may be.

What's missing in this conversation, for good reason I hasten to add, is a definition of "in shape" - what's a desirable outcome isn't going to be the same for everyone, and no one needs to have a single definition.

Add to this hot mess the fact that different training schemes, even using precisely the same movements, can yield widely varying results - then add to that the fact that some movements carry over to other movements and sports more than others, then add to that the fact that some goals aren't functional goals at all, their point being to perform whatever movements best effect certain changes in body composition, and, well, we aren't going to be able to say anything in general unless we restrict the conversation much more than we've restricted it in what I've read so far here.

-S-

Yes, my heart rate also gets up to over 100 and stays there for the entire duration of the walk. To get it up higher sooner I often run for 5 or 10 minutes at the start. And, I definitely agree that the walking muscles are getting strengthened and maintained.

As for the "in shape" part, I'm thinking about the strong men or sumo wrestlers with the fat hanging off them but also about some people I know who lift heavy weights but have overly stocky appearances, although to come to think of it in the light of your post perhaps I'm making an unjustified aesthetic judgement.