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Which is more important for the over forty crowd? With fasting you get a nice boost in HGH, but with protein pulses you get protein synthesis.
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North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Interesting question, esp as the two are interrelated. While fasting does boost HGH, it is also effected by exercise intensity and a bunch of other factors.
Optimum levels seem to be related to preservation of lean body mass - anti-catabolic, while protein synthesis is anabolic, both important.
I have no idea what the science says about protein ingestion interfering with GH production to the point where it has a negative effect overall, but my gut feeling is that the increase in protein is more important in exercising older folk. But probably not by much as long as daily totals are sufficient.
I'll bet @mprevost knows more about this off the top off his head than I'm liable to learn digging up online research papers for the afternoon.
Optimum levels seem to be related to preservation of lean body mass - anti-catabolic, while protein synthesis is anabolic, both important.
I have no idea what the science says about protein ingestion interfering with GH production to the point where it has a negative effect overall, but my gut feeling is that the increase in protein is more important in exercising older folk. But probably not by much as long as daily totals are sufficient.
I'll bet @mprevost knows more about this off the top off his head than I'm liable to learn digging up online research papers for the afternoon.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
HGH
How much HGH (Human Growth Hormone) you obtain from fasting or high intensity training is questionable; some is definitely better than none.
Pulse Feeding
As you indicated, older individuals need to consume more protein per meal than younger individual to obtain the same anabolic effect.
Younger individual need to consume 25 gram or more of quality protein per meal/serving. Older individual need to consume around 30 gram or more of quality protein per meal/serving like Whey.
"Which Is More Important?"
You are asking the wrong question. It not an either or question.
Synertistic Effect
The Synertistic Effect means that the sum is greater than its individual parts. Metaphorically speaking, 2 + 2 = 5.
Thus, your objective should to work on doing what you can to increase you HGH as well as increasing the amount of protein consumed per meal/serving.
Kenny Croxdale
mprevost
Level 7 Valued Member
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So......we can't really have our cake and eat it too. Since for protein synthesis we need a protein bolus every three to five hours which would kick us out of our fast and possible HGH benefit.
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
If you really want to figure it out, start with a 16:8 IF protocol, and insert 3 distinct, high protein meals into the feeding window. After a few weeks, expand the feeding window by 2-4 hours, increase the protein a little, and spread it over 4 meals. A few weeks of that, then just eat plain ol' breakfast, lunch, and dinner, with protein snacks in between. No fasting, and 5-6 servings of protein, lots of it.
If one of these makes you noticably feel better than the others, do that. If they all feel the same, do what's most convenient. You really would want to spend 3-4 weeks on each protocol, though, so you could note any body comp changes.
Only 3 months of consistent meal planning between you and your answer! Ok, maybe that's not very helpful (although that protocol would work).
Joking aside, it's nice to know what the science says, but at the end of the day, your body is what matters. It's nice to know that 96% of people respond well to treatment X, but it doesn't mean it's effective for the other 4%. If you really want to know, you'll have to experiment a little. Maybe not for 3 months like a crazy person, though.
If one of these makes you noticably feel better than the others, do that. If they all feel the same, do what's most convenient. You really would want to spend 3-4 weeks on each protocol, though, so you could note any body comp changes.
Only 3 months of consistent meal planning between you and your answer! Ok, maybe that's not very helpful (although that protocol would work).
Joking aside, it's nice to know what the science says, but at the end of the day, your body is what matters. It's nice to know that 96% of people respond well to treatment X, but it doesn't mean it's effective for the other 4%. If you really want to know, you'll have to experiment a little. Maybe not for 3 months like a crazy person, though.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Refractory Period
According to Dr Layne Norton's (PhD Nutrition), protein consumed every 4 - 6 hours it optimal for MPS (Muscle Protein Synthesis); rather than the tradition protocol used by Bodybuilder of eating every three hours.
Sponge Analogy
Think of Muscle Protein Synthesis like a sponge.
It soak up more water when it is dry.
The sponge soaks up less water when it is still largely hydrated with water. It take time for the sponge to dehydrate, if you put it down and wait for it to dehydrate.
Muscle Protein Synthesis appears to work in essentially that same way.
Muscle are essentially sponges.
Medication work in a somewhat similar fashion; once taken, a certain amount of time is required before administering them again. As you know, medication taken too often isn't as effective, it's overdosing.
Exception To The 4 - 6 Hour Rule
The exception to the rule (per Norton), is that Muscle Protein Synthesis can be spiked approximately 90 minutes after large bolus protein meal by taking Branch Chain Amino Acids that contains 2.5 to over 3.0 of Leucine; 2.5 to 3.0 gram of Leucine alone, also works.
5 - 6 Full Bolus Protein Meals/Snacks Is Contraindicated
Consuming too much protein too often amount to trying to fill a one gallon jug that is already full.
Kenny Croxdale
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Protein Bolus Every 4 - 6 Hours
In my previous post, I went into the reason for the 4 - 6 time frame.
A Mini Fast
A normal individual who consumes a fairly low carbohydrate, low glycemic index meal will register a Blood Glucose Lever of a near fasted state two hour after that meal.
Personal Experience
My fasted glucose reading is around 74.
My two hour post meal level ranges between 84 to 109, with it usually being right at 94. The variance in my post meal reading is dependent on the type of carbohydrate that I consume than the volume.
I limit my carbohydrate intake per meal to 10 - 20 gram on the Ketogenic Diet.
So, if your Blood Glucose Level is near your fasted state, that means your insulin level is low, allowing...
1) Higher HGH production. With that said, the amount of HGH produced in fasting or high intensity exercise is not as elevated as you've been lead to believe.
2) Higher levels of norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol (an acute increase burn fat, not muscle), and glucagon; fat burning hormones.
Thus, if you space you meals about every 6 hours, and you Blood Glucose Level is near fasting, that provide you with what might be considered a "Mini Fast".
Kenny Croxdale
pet'
Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,
@kennycro@@aol.com
Very interesting and instructive, as always !
Condering HGH and protein, it is often said that soy in general is not advisable for men because it make testosterone, thus HGH lower.
Do you have any opinion about that ?
Kind regards,
Pet'
@kennycro@@aol.com
Very interesting and instructive, as always !
Condering HGH and protein, it is often said that soy in general is not advisable for men because it make testosterone, thus HGH lower.
Do you have any opinion about that ?
Kind regards,
Pet'
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
@pet'
Some studies have shown a drop in T, one study in particular had a single participant whose T levels dropped notably (may have been juicing prior to the study).
The isoflavones in soy are not recognized by the body the same as human estrogen, it has no negative effect on T levels though is not as good as whey when it comes to sources of protein.
Once you get to protein isolates (pea, whey, soy) the differences largely disappear in terms of quality, though whey is still the best in terms of protein synthesis.
Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI
Some studies have shown a drop in T, one study in particular had a single participant whose T levels dropped notably (may have been juicing prior to the study).
The isoflavones in soy are not recognized by the body the same as human estrogen, it has no negative effect on T levels though is not as good as whey when it comes to sources of protein.
Once you get to protein isolates (pea, whey, soy) the differences largely disappear in terms of quality, though whey is still the best in terms of protein synthesis.
Clinical studies show no effects of soy protein or isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men: results of a meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI
Marc
Level 6 Valued Member
HGH in adult people does zero for muscle protein synthesis.
HGH in the adult organism is mainly involved in fat burning.
Generally speaking: be skeptical with any diet/nutritional tactic which claims to boost certain hormones. None of these will be able to push it beyond the physiological range which would be necessary to evoke a significant response. I.e. if you boost your testoterone level from 500 to 650 (which is within the physiological range) you won't notice too much, especially not in terms of muscle gain. You'd have to use a super physiological dose which can only be achieved by drugs.
HGH in the adult organism is mainly involved in fat burning.
Generally speaking: be skeptical with any diet/nutritional tactic which claims to boost certain hormones. None of these will be able to push it beyond the physiological range which would be necessary to evoke a significant response. I.e. if you boost your testoterone level from 500 to 650 (which is within the physiological range) you won't notice too much, especially not in terms of muscle gain. You'd have to use a super physiological dose which can only be achieved by drugs.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The Quality of Proteins
Before answering that question, let's look at the various method used to evaluate proteins and how proteins stack up against each other, in the...
Protein Quality–The 4 Most Important Metrics
- Protein Efficiency Ratio (PER)
- Biological Value (BV)
- Net Protein Utilization (NPU)
- Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS)
- Whey: PER (3.2), BV (104), NPU (92), PDCAAS (1.00)
- Casein: PER (2.5), BV (77), NPU (76), PDCAAS (1.00)
- Soy: PER (2.2), BV (74), NPU (61), PDCAAS (1.00)
- Egg: PER (3.9), BV (100), NPU (94), PDCAAS (1.00)
PDCAAS is the most recent method of determining the quality of proteins and one that tends to be considered to provide a better reading on the quality of the proteins.
As the rating show, Soy rates the same as Whey, Casein, and Egg in quality, or does it?
A bit of a dark cloud still hovers over soy.
Dr Layne Norton questions the use of soy...
Articles
1) ...Data indicating that soy does have an inhibitory effect on an anabolic signaling pathway in muscle cells called the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR). Think of mTOR as the “switch” that turns on protein synthesis in muscle."
2) "...It appears that it can impair anabolism if over-consumed. ... In moderate amounts it is most likely fine."
Soy Effect On HGH (Human Growth Hormone)
I agree with most of what Marc stated, "HGH in adult people does zero for muscle protein synthesis. HGH in the adult organism is mainly involved in fat burning."
For some reason, there's an obsession increasing HGH as a means of increasing muscle mass via diet, fasting, medical therapy.
Increasing HGH can slightly assist with increasing muscle mass but pales in comparison to increasing Testosterone.
Does Soy Lower HGH?
You seem to be taking a leap of faith in you statement that if Soy lower Testosterone, it lower HGH.
1) I haven't seen any research data supporting that.
2) The main concern for anyone wanting to increase muscle mass with diet, training, replacement therapy should first focus testosterone.
Testosterone Super Physiological Dose
As Marc stated, "If you boost your testoterone level from 500 to 650 (which is within the physiological range) you won't notice too much, especially not in terms of muscle gain."
Summary
1) Personally, I'd recommend limiting Soy Protein Intake. Whey Protein is considered the "Anabolic Protein"; in part due the fact that it has the highest percentage of Leucine.
Here a Leucine Guide Line on proteins.
Whey contains between 10 - 11%
Casein, Meats and Dairy contain approximately 8%.
Vegan Protein are traditionally low in Leucine and often do not contain all of the essential proteins. That is why vegan consume bean with rice, etc.
2) Not that much HGH is produced with exercise, diet, fasting, etc.
For some reason, most individual are misinformed and obsessed with HGH; lack of education drives it.
3) I haven't seen anything, regarding Soy protein having any impact or HGH. If you have something, I'd like to see it.
Kenny Croxdale
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Deleted member 316
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I want saying hgh had anything to do with mass and protein synthesis, but rather it being touted as the fountain of youth hormone for us older guys.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Sleep and HGH
Sleep creating a significant amount of HGH release is a hyperbolic statement; while it is released during sleep, it is still minimal.
Misinformation regarding this an other topics continue to be perpetuated.
Increasing HGH via sleep, exercise, diet, fasting or even taking HGH (extremely expensive) isn't (as you know) make you 21 again.
To reiterate, an increase in Testosterone for most men and some women (they need some testosterone) is going to produce a much greater effect than an increase in Growth Hormone.
Kenny Croxdale
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Being Touted
Again, this is misinformation. Growth Hormone, as with many drugs, have some value with health issues.
However, somehow the hyperbolic statement that HGH is "The Fountain of Youth Hormone" continue to be perpetuated by individual who watched a 30 second commercial on TV.
With that said, the Over The Counter HGH promoted on TV and websites is a waste of money. The "Good Stuff" is the "Behind The Counter HGH that you need a prescription for.
Prescription HGH is expensive. The cost to benefit is poor compared to Testosterone Replacement Therapy for health, etc.; should someone be considering it.
Marc Post #11
I agree with the majority of Marc's post.
Kenny Croxdale
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Anything you can do to boost T and reduce resting cortisol levels will be a big step in the right direction.
Heavy compound exercises, interval training, lots of rest.
So unless your T is low and you don't want to do HRT, there's not much reason to strive to actively raise your T levels with particular nutrition, supplementation and training strategies? I've stalked the Anabolic Men site for a long time (they advocate "eating for hormonal health"). In a wold of low carb craze they for 40-50% carbs of your total caloric intake and 30-40% total caloric intake monounsaturated and saturated fats. Protein, although important is around 20%. They do maintain that stress management and sleep are critical.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Protein Percentage
As you know, the percentage is to a large extent dependent on the amount of calories you are consuming.
Protein recommendations vary from 1.2 to 2.0 gram per kilo of body weight.
Muscle Protein Synthesis
When it comes to simulating Muscle Protein Synthesis. Leucine in the primary key; 2.5 gram for younger individual is the minimal with around 3.0 gram for older individual being the minimal recommended per meal/serving.
Thus, that amount of Leucine intake per meal/snack supersedes the percentage.
That information is in Post #7.
Carbohydrate Intake
The amount of carbohydrate intake necessary for hormonal health, training and life in general varies from study to study.
Individual involved in Glycolyic Energy System sports or activities definitely need higher carbohydrate intake.
Individual involved in sport and activities in the Phosphagen and Oxidative Energy System, don't need 40 - 50% of their calories from carbohydrates.
Kenny Croxdale
Marc
Level 6 Valued Member
That sounds reasonable.
There really seems to be no reason to ingest much more than 2g of protein per kg of bodyweight. Get in ~ 20-40% of calories from fat and the rest of your calories from carbs. Couple that with reasonable training/sleep/stress management and your hormonal profile including testosterone will be pretty good by default. Everybody's range is different, so don't worry if your in the lower to mid range. If you are feeling good with that, this is probably "your" range. If you don't feel too good and have low T the fix is usually to lose body fat (roughly speaking aim for a 8-20% range) and take care of the aforementioned points. Everything else will follow.
But there is absolutely no way to boost testosterone beyond the physiological range. So do the best you can, but don't have unrealistic expectations (which are often promoted by various nutritional stategies).
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