Nutrition ‘Half cheating’ IF without insulin spike

[fractal]

I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for a while now (probably more than a year) and am strict on weekdays, 50/50 on weekends. I generally enjoy the lifestyle but am not militant about it.

I’m not generally a breakfast person anyway, but lately have found myself starving by 7am a few days per week. This probably because of increased training volume. The pangs do tend to subside after a few hours, but on these days it takes a massive lunch to feel satisfied - this isn’t practical at work.

As I understand it, there seems to be two primary mechanisms through which IF is beneficial. The first being the cleanup/autophagic health aspect and the second being a more metabolic/insulin driven.

Has anyone experimented with ‘half’ breaking their fast by consuming a small to moderate amount of straight peanut butter on particularly hungry days? I already consume black coffee fairly early in the day, so to purists I may not be fasting at all in the first place.

I guess the other option is to force down the peanut butter after dinner (doesn’t sound appealing) and hope the surplus carries me through.

 

[Sean M]

Check out the Warrior Diet. It isn’t a strict fast, it’s 18-20 hours of “underconsuming” during the day, such as 2 x 300 calorie servings of nuts, cheese, whey, etc. (low carb). Then 4-6 hours to feast in the evening, then rest and digest.

I think this preserves most of the metabolic/insulin benefits of a strict fast, and perhaps much of the autophogy as well (the deficit from activity in the day has to be met somehow).

 

[Bret S.]

I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for a while now (probably more than a year) and am strict on weekdays, 50/50 on weekends. I generally enjoy the lifestyle but am not militant about it.

I’m not generally a breakfast person anyway, but lately have found myself starving by 7am a few days per week. This probably because of increased training volume. The pangs do tend to subside after a few hours, but on these days it takes a massive lunch to feel satisfied - this isn’t practical at work.

As I understand it, there seems to be two primary mechanisms through which IF is beneficial. The first being the cleanup/autophagic health aspect and the second being a more metabolic/insulin driven.

Has anyone experimented with ‘half’ breaking their fast by consuming a small to moderate amount of straight peanut butter on particularly hungry days? I already consume black coffee fairly early in the day, so to purists I may not be fasting at all in the first place.

I guess the other option is to force down the peanut butter after dinner (doesn’t sound appealing) and hope the surplus carries me through.

I eat if my body tells me to eat, some fats in the am along with a little protein will help to calm the body and cut the acidic type hunger pangs brought on by consuming black coffee, I like 1/2 n 1/2 for the fat.

OTOH if needed I'll eat big in the morning at times, again instinct guides when this happens, I've had training tweaks from proceeding while absolutely flat, it's not worth the risk to stick slavishly to IF 'schedules' for me. Recovery demands food, I'm in the process of adding some calories right now along with closely monitoring body signals.

 

[fractal]

Check out the Warrior Diet. It isn’t a strict fast, it’s 18-20 hours of “underconsuming” during the day, such as 2 x 300 calorie servings of nuts, cheese, whey, etc. (low carb). Then 4-6 hours to feast in the evening, then rest and digest.

I think this preserves most of the metabolic/insulin benefits of a strict fast, and perhaps much of the autophogy as well (the deficit from activity in the day has to be met somehow).

Excellent. I had my window down to 4-6hours at one point, but without the snacks. I’m very intrigued.

I eat if my body tells me to eat, some fats in the am along with a little protein will help to calm the body and cut the acidic type hunger pangs brought on by consuming black coffee, I like 1/2 n 1/2 for the fat.

OTOH if needed I'll eat big in the morning at times, again instinct guides when this happens, I've had training tweaks from proceeding while absolutely flat, it's not worth the risk to stick slavishly to IF 'schedules' for me. Recovery demands food, I'm in the process of adding some calories right now along with closely monitoring body signals.

100%. It makes so much sense when someone else says it. You can’t be in the pursuit of health while walking around feeling like the living dead.

Good advice. Thank you both

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Check out the Warrior Diet. It isn’t a strict fast, it’s 18-20 hours of “underconsuming” during the day,

Underconsuming Food During The Day

...means eating, not fasting.

Any food you consume break the fast. Consuming protein trigger the release of of some insulin; which bunts the fat burning process.

Specifically, Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine and Alanine trigger insulin production.

Underconsuming amount to calorie restriction, not Fasting.

Stating it isn't a strict fast is a dramatic understatement. It is like being a little pregnant.

I think this preserves most of the metabolic/insulin benefits of a strict fast,...

Riding A Roller Small Roller Coaster

Consuming 300 kcal, especially with cheese and even more so with whey, shuts down the fasting process for a while. Whey contains the highest percentage of Leucine of any protein. Cheese also has a fair amount of Leucine.

Low Carb

This is one of those vague term with virtually no real definitive number. Secondly, carbohydrates produce a insulin response; as you know, dependent glycemic index, fiber content and the other macros it mixed with

Consuming BCAA Between Meals

Consuming Branch Chain Amino Acids (Leucine, Isoleucine, Valine) between meals trigger insulin release, shutting down Fasting. The BCAA's inter and exit the system quickly. However, they still shut down Fasting for a while.

Driving Analogy

Consuming food during the day amount to driving in city traffic; constantly starting and stopping a traffic lights

Fasting (consuming no food) amount to high way driving; setting the cruse control at 70 mph.

With highway driving, you get better gas mileage and get farther down the road than you do with city "Stop and Go" Traffic.

Fat Consumption

Fat doesn't trigger insulin release. Consuming fats during a "Strict Fast" is a better option. However, consuming fats during a Fast mean you aren't fasting.

Calorie Restriction

Underconsuming amount to Non-Fasted Caloric Restriction.

I Think

This amount to guessing, flipping a coin and guessing if it's head or tails.

The Take Home Message

Fasting (no food) trigger a completely different response than Pseudo-Fasting (eating food throughout the day).

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

Stating it isn't a strict fast is a dramatic understatement. It is like being a little pregnant.

Respectfully disagree. There are many variations on this. There is a quantifiable state - you don't have meal, you don't get that slow, food-coma feeling, you just stop feeling hungry. My usual is black coffee until mid-morning or noon or even early afternoon, then coffee with heavy cream and a Dale's bar - the bar is about 200-250 calories, on the order or 15-20 grams of carbohydrate and about the same protein. And then dinner where I stock up on food. My midday "meal" is what I'd call being slightly pregnant.

-S-

 

[Bret S.]

Stating it isn't a strict fast is a dramatic understatement. It is like being a little pregnant

Funny but true, in the literal sense, but eating a little fat is ok?

Driving Analogy

Consuming food during the day amount to driving in city traffic; constantly starting and stopping a traffic lights

Fasting (consuming no food) amount to high way driving; setting the cruse control at 70 mph.

With highway driving, you get better gas mileage and get farther down the road than you do with city "Stop and Go" Traffic.

Fat doesn't trigger insulin release. Consuming fats during a "Strict Fast" is a better option. However, consuming fats during a Fast mean you aren't fasting.

I know we've been over the effects of black coffee but can't recall the exact conclusions drawn, if I remember it right the coffee makes the fast not a true fast yet you still retain good benefits of fasting, adding in a little fatty cream (very little) should keep the fat burning no?
I would like to keep on the highway with fasting, seeing I do it daily with coffee and a bit of cream (2-3 cups usually)
What I'm doing seems to work for me, I stay fairly cut year round and can dial body fat up or down with small food intake adjustments.

 

[Bret S.]

My usual is black coffee until mid-morning or noon or even early afternoon, then coffee with heavy cream and a Dale's bar - the bar is about 200-250 calories, on the order or 15-20 grams of carbohydrate and about the same protein. And then dinner where I stock up on food. My midday "meal" is what I'd call being slightly pregnant.

We're similar here but I need to break the fast with eggs (4 pressure cooked) and some oatmeal as a slow burning carb, sometimes this holds me until dinner but doing 2 hrs training, 1 kb and 1 LED will force me to add a protein bar at least or I start to crash.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Respectfully disagree. There are many variations on this. There is a quantifiable state - you don't have meal, you don't get that slow, food-coma feeling, you just stop feeling hungry. My usual is black coffee until mid-morning or noon or even early afternoon, then coffee with heavy cream and a Dale's bar - the bar is about 200-250 calories, on the order or 15-20 grams of carbohydrate and about the same protein. And then dinner where I stock up on food. My midday "meal" is what I'd call being slightly pregnant.

-S-

Glucometer

A great tool for determing if you are or aren't in a Fasting State is to measure you Blood Sugar with a Glucometer.

1) Take your reading in a Fasting State, upon waking.

2) Consume some food and then take it again about 30, 60, 90 and 120 minutes afterward.

3) The Glucometer will demonstrated you are no longer in a Fasted State, due to an elevation in blood glucose.

Diet Drinks

I purchased a Glucometer to determine if consuming a Diet Drink with my Ketogenic Meals would affect my blood glucose. Some article stated it would some that it would not.

What I found is the consuming a Diet Drink has little effect my blood glucose reading.

Diathrive Glucometer
Diabetes Testing Supplies - Diathrive

The plan that I am on cost $8.00 a month. It includes the meter, lancets, and test strips,

For those who'd rather know than guess, it's a great investment.

Ketone Meter

I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for 2 1/2 years. I initially used the Urine Test Strips. However, they work for a while with most individual and then don't.

Secondly, that aren't as effective as blood measurements. So, I now have a Ketone. I spot check it since the Test Strips are $1.00 each. My reading are constantly demonstrate that I am in "The Ketone Zone", utilizing ketones, rather than glucose. My reading is .9 to 1.5 mmol/l.

Fasting And Ketones

What is interesting is my wife consumes around 100 -150 gram of carbohydrate a day; this take her out of "The Ketone Zone".

However, after a 16 hour or longer Fast, her reading is at .6 mmol/l; which means she burning ketones rather than glucose. The arbitrary entry level for being in ketosis is .5 mmol/l.

Blood Ketone & Glucose Monitoring Systems | Keto-Mojo

For someone interested in the most economical Ketone Meter, the Mojo (site above) is great.

Glucose Dependent

Glucose dependent individual traditionally experience greater hunger. They often state they are starving to death, which is untrue. They are just a little uncomfortable.

Fasting and Metabolically Flexible

Fasting for extended periods, 12 hours or longer dramatically improve Metabolic Flexibility; you ability to shift between glucose and ketones for fuel.

Usually, longer Fast, decrease hunger; the body utilizing primarily ketones rather than glucose. Drs John Berardi, Dom D'Agostino, Mike T. Nelson, etc have noted that.

Dr Dom D'Agostino stated he performed a 7 day fast while resistance training with no issue.

My Longest Fast

My longest fast was 36 hours. I experience some hunger after the first 12 hours but it went away.

Starving

Research has demonstrated that fat is primarily use up to 72 hour of a Fast. After 72 hours, the body begins to catabolize muscle mass.

Thus, individual who state they are Starving, aren't starving. They are just a little uncomfortable.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Bret S.]

Dr Dom D'Agostino stated he performed a 7 day fast while resistance training with no issue.

This would seem to be dose dependent I would think, and job dependent (physical vs sedentary).

Here is a week of training from last month


Given the volume of training above I don't think I would do well in a fasted state. Dr. D may have resistance trained but to what extent?
I have fasted and trained for 36 hrs and felt no bad effects, but I could almost hear the fat frying off of me.
My question is how far can we push in a fasted state? If I did the above training fasted (if I could) what would be the negative impact?
Surely muscle would be cannibalized in the process and I would never try it willingly, but at what point is too much too much? Granted this week of training contained 6-7 hrs LED training which would affect the equation.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...the coffee makes the fast not a true fast yet you still retain good benefits of fasting, adding in a little fatty cream (very little) should keep the fat burning no?

Coffee And Fasting

Ellie post stated that consuming anything means it not a true fast. Dr Rhonda Patrick went into that as well on a Joe Rogan interview. I agree.

Consuming something changes things.

Coffee and Cream

...keeping you in the fat burning zone. Good question. I don't have a good answer.

This falls more into Snowman's area.

One of the concerns around ingesting fat is that the body utilizes the fat consumed to a greater extent that body fat.

What I'm doing seems to work for me,

That is all the matters.

Moderation

Whoever came up with "Everything in moderation" never lived up to their full potential.

People who get ahead, push the limit at times; "No guts, no glory".

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Al Ciampa]

I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for a while now (probably more than a year) and am strict on weekdays, 50/50 on weekends. I generally enjoy the lifestyle but am not militant about it.

I’m not generally a breakfast person anyway, but lately have found myself starving by 7am a few days per week. This probably because of increased training volume. The pangs do tend to subside after a few hours, but on these days it takes a massive lunch to feel satisfied - this isn’t practical at work.

As I understand it, there seems to be two primary mechanisms through which IF is beneficial. The first being the cleanup/autophagic health aspect and the second being a more metabolic/insulin driven.

Has anyone experimented with ‘half’ breaking their fast by consuming a small to moderate amount of straight peanut butter on particularly hungry days? I already consume black coffee fairly early in the day, so to purists I may not be fasting at all in the first place.

I guess the other option is to force down the peanut butter after dinner (doesn’t sound appealing) and hope the surplus carries me through.

Since you’re already not being militant about it, go with what your body asks for. You’ll still be fasting at least half the week, correct?

But you can also try eating more for supper and or lunch and or expanding your feeding window on some days. It’s very easy to make fasting work for you.

Look at energy intake and fasting duration as an average weekly total rather than daily. And lastly, your metabsolism might still be adapting. All that aside, your recent training program simply required more energy than you’re accustomed to.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Dr. D may have resistance trained but to what extent?

Dom D’Agostino, Ph.D.: ketosis, n=1, exogenous ketones, HBOT, seizures, and cancer (EP.05)

Dom deadlifted 500 for 10 (his 5RM was about 555 for 10 at the time), and 1 rep at 585 lbs after fasting for 7 days;

Surely muscle would be cannibalized in the process and I would never try it willingly,

1) Based on the research, up to 72 hours of Fasting primarily utilizes ketones/body fat.

2) If muscle is cannibalized, how much? And if so, how much muscle is cannibalized?

3) Never trying something means you will never know.

The second magazine Strength Training article that I wrote dealt Complex Training. The irony was all the people who had never tired it, telling me it would not work. My final reply in the article addressed it...

"I guarantee, it will never work if you never try it."

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Bret S.]

The second magazine Strength Training article that I wrote dealt Complex Training. The irony was all the people who had never tired it, telling me it would not work. My final reply in the article addressed it...

"I guarantee, it will never work if you never try it."

Currently my weight is the lightest it's been since age 19. So at a BW 185 pounds (6' 2") if I were to fast for a week at my current training load I'll probably lose at least 12 lbs with a good portion of it being muscle weight.
My girl would kick my butt as she likes me more beefy than I am now, and aside from that I'm gaining strength on my program while actually dropping a few pounds of BF in the process. I did some extended fasting 2 years ago and dropped weight like a rock, 30 lbs, so I kinda know what would happen if I were to go radical with fasting.

What exactly happens when muscle is cannibalized? Is the entire cell destroyed? and if so which ones get picked off? the ST or FT or both? How does one recover from such a thing? It doesn't seem appealing to me even as an experiment.

I'm all for field tests of certain types but draw the line at premeditated murder of muscle cells>

 

[Steve Freides]

Never trying something means you will never know.

T-shirt worthy, and I mean that in absolutey the best way. It's an apt description of my life to date, trying many things, and trying to get good at the things I like.

Whoever came up with "Everything in moderation" never lived up to their full potential.

People who get ahead, push the limit at times; "No guts, no glory".

Again, great stuff.

Glucometer

A great tool for determing if you are or aren't in a Fasting State is to measure you Blood Sugar with a Glucometer.

You have to poke yourself and bleed - I'll pass, thank you.

Fasting And Ketones

What is interesting is my wife consumes around 100 -150 gram of carbohydrate a day; this take her out of "The Ketone Zone".

However, after a 16 hour or longer Fast, her reading is at .6 mmol/l; which means she burning ketones rather than glucose. The arbitrary entry level for being in ketosis is .5 mmol/l.

This pretty much describes me as well. I don't eat much, anyway, most of the time, and since I don't have much in the way of carbs for dinner, according to keto strips, I'm in mild ketosis most days when I wake up, and in more ketosis the longer the day goes before dinner.

Blood Ketone & Glucose Monitoring Systems | Keto-Mojo

For someone interested in the most economical Ketone Meter, the Mojo (site above) is great.

Another vampire device.

-S-

 

[fractal]

Glad to see this thread popped back up with a good discussion

Since you’re already not being militant about it, go with what your body asks for. You’ll still be fasting at least half the week, correct?

But you can also try eating more for supper and or lunch and or expanding your feeding window on some days. It’s very easy to make fasting work for you.

Look at energy intake and fasting duration as an average weekly total rather than daily. And lastly, your metabsolism might still be adapting. All that aside, your recent training program simply required more energy than you’re accustomed to.

Thanks Al!

 

[Snowman]

What exactly happens when muscle is cannibalized? Is the entire cell destroyed? and if so which ones get picked off? the ST or FT or both?

It's pretty similar to fat cells. The cell itself is still there, it just has less stuff in it. Whatever is in the cell that is viewed as relatively expendable is broken down to get amino acids, carbohydrates, and fatty acids, which then get shuttled into the bloodstream for use elsewhere (generally as an energy source in critical organs). As you can imagine, muscle cells will provide more amino acids than anything else, while fat cells will provide more fatty acids. As the individual fat cells, muscles cells, etc get "emptied out," they get smaller and smaller. Really, most of our cells are simultaneously getting emptied out and filled up as part of the normal goings-on of the cell. If it's happening at a steady state (stuff in=stuff out), we don't notice anything, but if the balance is tilted one way or another we can see hypertrophy or atrophy.
I have no idea if some types of muscle cells are preferentially targeted before others. I mean, fat cells obviously get targeted first, and I would imagine that the body has to be pretty hard up before it starts pulling stuff out of brain cells, but I have no idea what the priorities are for types of muscle cells.
Fun fact, one of the leading causes of death for people who starve to death is heart failure. At some point in the starvation process your body starts to break down cardiac muscle, eventually weakening the heart to the point where it can't do it's job anymore. Of course, that doesn't happen until pretty late in the game.

I do a fair amount of irregular time restricted feeding and IF for the sake of my schedule ('tis often easier to simply not eat at times), but like @Bret S. I'm at a point where I draw a hard line at anything that will start sucking goodies out of my muscle cells.

 

[Bret S.]

It's pretty similar to fat cells. The cell itself is still there, it just has less stuff in it. Whatever is in the cell that is viewed as relatively expendable is broken down to get amino acids, carbohydrates, and fatty acids, which then get shuttled into the bloodstream for use elsewhere (generally as an energy source in critical organs). As you can imagine, muscle cells will provide more amino acids than anything else, while fat cells will provide more fatty acids. As the individual fat cells, muscles cells, etc get "emptied out," they get smaller and smaller. Really, most of our cells are simultaneously getting emptied out and filled up as part of the normal goings-on of the cell. If it's happening at a steady state (stuff in=stuff out), we don't notice anything, but if the balance is tilted one way or another we can see hypertrophy or atrophy.
I have no idea if some types of muscle cells are preferentially targeted before others. I mean, fat cells obviously get targeted first, and I would imagine that the body has to be pretty hard up before it starts pulling stuff out of brain cells, but I have no idea what the priorities are for types of muscle cells.
Fun fact, one of the leading causes of death for people who starve to death is heart failure. At some point in the starvation process your body starts to break down cardiac muscle, eventually weakening the heart to the point where it can't do it's job anymore. Of course, that doesn't happen until pretty late in the game.

I do a fair amount of irregular time restricted feeding and IF for the sake of my schedule ('tis often easier to simply not eat at times), but like @Bret S. I'm at a point where I draw a hard line at anything that will start sucking goodies out of my muscle cells.

Thanks Snowman, the muscle cells can then normalize after the trauma of being vacuumed out I assume, provided with the correct nutrition for a period of time.

On the whole if taken too far (think Baatan or holocaust) long term body damage, lifelong damage, has occurred and people never recover fully from this abuse. Of course these are the extreme examples.

But, like a farmer or gardener, I don't need to stop watering my plants to find out what happens..

 

[Snowman]

Thanks Snowman, the muscle cells can then normalize after the trauma of being vacuumed out I assume, provided with the correct nutrition for a period of time.

Indeed. Andy Galpin is a pretty good resource for anyone who really wants to follow this line of questioning. Not only can the cells normalize, but under favorable conditions they can pretty rapidly re-achieve a previously achieved size. Hence why it's much easier to get back to a certain level of muscle mass than it is to initially put on muscle. I heard Galpin mention that muscle cells develop new nuclei as they get bigger, but don't get rid of them when they shrink (at least not for a very long time), so potentially having a high number of nuclei could allow a muscle cell bounce back pretty quickly. I'm sure it's more complex than that, though

On the whole if taken too far (think Baatan or holocaust) long term body damage, lifelong damage, has occurred and people never recover fully from this abuse. Of course these are the extreme examples.

True. I can only imagine what kind of adaptations have to occur to keep someone alive through experiences like that. For all I know, the cells develop a metabolic pathway to run on willpower itself. There are some things that should perhaps never be studied...

 

[Bret S.]

There are some things that should perhaps never be studied..

Agreed! Thanks again for the info