Barbell DL and OHP form check

[freeflowme]

Hey all,

Little bit of background: In my early 20s, I got an MRI that showed I'd herniated my L4/L5 disc multiple times over the years. Following that, I increasingly just gave up on doing any physical activity and have descended further and further into chronic pain. Finally, I decided that the only way forward was strengthening the right muscles and stretching the others, and got myself a bar and some plates about a month ago and started PTTP!-ing.

I decided to start what felt embarrassingly low in hopes of not immediately reinsuring myself, which I have always done when starting any type of strength training since my late teens - 115 on deadlift and 65 on OHP - and have done a cycle of 12 workouts thus far putting me at a 170 DL and 95 OHP. I'm wondering if it's time to start a new cycle, as my joints are starting to hurt quite a bit for the whole portion of the day that I'm not "warm" during working out.

In any case, I was hoping for some feedback on form, even though - again - everything about doing this in my living room in front of the kids toys, and being weak, and having so little awareness of my body that my form isn't what I'd want it to be is all rather embarrassing. I would classify myself as someone who has a ridiculously short torso compared to their legs, which has led to me feeling like my hips are really high and my back is almost parallel to the ground when I set up to the bar "correctly" (by what I've learned from Starting Strength and PTTP! cues). Let me know if I'm doing anything right, and what else looks wrong.

DL

OHP

I also had a question about the no warming up aspect of PTTP! (as read in the book). I've been following a quick dynamic stretching routine by Greg Everett before each workout, because I feel like there's no way I could walk up to a bar and pull without limbering up first - my body is just always so tight and in pain, and I really don't want to herniate a disc again. And then following up the 4 sets of lifting with some foam rolling and static stretching. My mobility has greatly increased in these past 2.5 weeks, and while I don't want to not be following the Party rule about just doing the 4 working sets and nothing else, it feels like this has been working. Thoughts appreciated.

 

[Bill Been]

Deadlift - not bad at all. Set up with the bar over the middle of your foot. Set your back flat harder by thinking about raising your chest. Leave your neck neutral, no need to look at the ceiling. A spot 12-15’ in front of you is fine. Big breath and hold..drag it up your legs. Do not exhale at the top. Air is support. Do not exhale til the bar is back on the floor. To get it there, push your butt back more and let it slide down your thighs past your knees - THEN bend your knees. You’re moving the bar around your knees on the way down, making it harderbto put the bar back over the mid foot for the next rep. Really solid work here.

Press - all the pausing and holding you’re doing is just making your set last too long and costing you progress and safety. Get some stands or preferably a squat rack and press from the rack. Or get somebody to teach you how to Clean. Stop exhaling in the Clean and on the Press. Don’t dawdle. Crank out the reps and put the bar down.

 

[Anna C]

Looks pretty solid, @freeflowme, I don't see any major problems. You're mostly doing it right!

Deadlift - hip height looks about right and setup is good for your initial rep. When you lower the bar you have to go around the knees just a bit and that puts the bar just forward of mid-foot to start the next rep. Think "hips back" for the descent and straighten the knees earlier and then the bar can come straight down. Or, if it doesn't, and you have to make an adjustment, roll the bar back towards you an inch or so, then bring your shins to the bar to get set for the next rep. Good job setting your back before the pull. Might be able to get a little more tightness in your lumbar spine when you do that (Starting Strength uses a cue to point your butt at the wall behind you that works pretty well), but it's not bad, and you hold it in place throughout the pull. I'd suggest looking at a point on the floor about 12 feet in front of you and look up "through your eyebrows" to avoid excessive neck extension (I tend to have this too). Lockout looks good. I subscribe to SS's instruction to not exhale at the top of the deadlift.

Press looks good -- but get tighter! -- legs and abs. You might be putting it an inch or two too far behind you at the top. Go for the point where it's balanced over your shoulders and you can feel your whole skeleton holding the weight up. Try to straighten your wrists at the top, too -- rings to the ceiling, or punch the ceiling. Can't see your wrists in the rack but they should be close to straight there, too.

Good job getting moving again. Many people with back pain can attest that the best medicine for a bad back is getting it stronger.

 

[freeflowme]

Deadlift - not bad at all. Set up with the bar over the middle of your foot. Set your back flat harder by thinking about raising your chest. Leave your neck neutral, no need to look at the ceiling. A spot 12-15’ in front of you is fine. Big breath and hold..drag it up your legs. Do not exhale at the top. Air is support. Do not exhale til the bar is back on the floor. To get it there, push your butt back more and let it slide down your thighs past your knees - THEN bend your knees. You’re moving the bar around your knees on the way down, making it harderbto put the bar back over the mid foot for the next rep. Really solid work here.

Press - all the pausing and holding you’re doing is just making your set last too long and costing you progress and safety. Get some stands or preferably a squat rack and press from the rack. Or get somebody to teach you how to Clean. Stop exhaling in the Clean and on the Press. Don’t dawdle. Crank out the reps and put the bar down.

Thanks for the feedback! Tried "raising my chest" today and recorded myself again. I do think it led to a much more solid flat back. Tried working on my negative portion of the rep, too, and think I was more successful in keeping my knees straight until the bar was below the knee, resulting in a better set up for the next rep. I also tried holding my breath through the top of the rep. The result there was that I felt really gassed (out of breath) after a few reps. I'll keep trying to practice that and see if I can adjust.

As far as the OHP is concerned, it could be that I'm working too close to my 5RM here. In fact, I think I could 5RM 100 or 105, but not more than that, and that would be a very maximal effort. So the pausing between reps is really for me to get geared up for the next one. I reset my cycle today and focused on staying tight, and being under the weight for less time. I am a bit confused though. In PTTP! I thought I remembered Pavel saying that reps should be 3-5 seconds up, 3-5 seconds down, so part of me has been trying to do controlled reps instead of explosive reps. Does that only apply to the deadlift and not the OHP?

Looks pretty solid, @freeflowme, I don't see any major problems. You're mostly doing it right!

Deadlift - hip height looks about right and setup is good for your initial rep. When you lower the bar you have to go around the knees just a bit and that puts the bar just forward of mid-foot to start the next rep. Think "hips back" for the descent and straighten the knees earlier and then the bar can come straight down. Or, if it doesn't, and you have to make an adjustment, roll the bar back towards you an inch or so, then bring your shins to the bar to get set for the next rep. Good job setting your back before the pull. Might be able to get a little more tightness in your lumbar spine when you do that (Starting Strength uses a cue to point your butt at the wall behind you that works pretty well), but it's not bad, and you hold it in place throughout the pull. I'd suggest looking at a point on the floor about 12 feet in front of you and look up "through your eyebrows" to avoid excessive neck extension (I tend to have this too). Lockout looks good. I subscribe to SS's instruction to not exhale at the top of the deadlift.

Press looks good -- but get tighter! -- legs and abs. You might be putting it an inch or two too far behind you at the top. Go for the point where it's balanced over your shoulders and you can feel your whole skeleton holding the weight up. Try to straighten your wrists at the top, too -- rings to the ceiling, or punch the ceiling. Can't see your wrists in the rack but they should be close to straight there, too.

Good job getting moving again. Many people with back pain can attest that the best medicine for a bad back is getting it stronger.

Thanks for the feedback! I feel like it takes me a TON of effort to get my back to "flat." I don't know if that's due to inflexibility, lack of strength in my posterior chain, a combination of the both, or if that's just how it goes. I think I'm looking up due to Pavel's cue and the image of Pavel pulling in PTTP where he's straight up looking at the ceiling, and I believe encourages practitioners to do the same. I've wondered about it thought... whether keeping a more neutral neck would be better. I guess I'll try it tomorrow.

I'm totally with you on staying tighter during the press. I often find that I only really start to get tight around the 4th or 5th rep. Need to work on initiating that from the get go. I was wondering about the top of the press. I guess my focus was on trying to get maximum ROM, open up my shoulders, get my head through the press, etc. But I'll record again tomorrow and try to find a balanced position throughout my whole skeleton.

Thanks again.

 

[Steve Freides]

@freeflowme, I do not teach the deadlift the way you're doing it, nor does PTTP. I highly recommend you follow PTTP's instructions. Get tight enough at the top that it's difficult to get down to the bar, flat back and pressurized midsection at all times, and let all that tension work for you on the way back up. Fall with the weight by pushing your hips back, staying tight and pressurized and with a flat back as the bar falls. Get used to hinging at the hips with a flat back.

-S-

 

[Alaska80]

@freeflowme

Sir,

FWIW here is my opinion.

I suffered from pretty significant lower back issues in my mid 20's to early 30's, a product of heavy lifting and the life of an infantryman. I went through the injury recovery cycles more than I can count. After the Army I had a hard time bending over, often I would have to have my wife tie my shoes for me, pain was a constant friend. I refused to get surgery though and tried just about every juice, drink, and concoction that claims to heal this or that and the workouts along with them. What ended up working though was 3 years of specific training from the foundation up. I had to get to a place where my pride was set aside, along with the heavy weights for a time to rebuild and heal. You are ahead in that you are willing to go light, it took me years to stop lifting heavy and through the stupidity of pain. Anyway, here is what worked for me.

First off, backs heal. I had many doctors tell me that they do not, it is a lie. The reason many American's backs never heal is because they never remove the injury mechanism, which is usually extremely weak postural muscles and poor sitting/standing/moving habits. If those are not changed a disc will always be compressed or compromised and not heal; remove those mechanisms exacerbating your injury and your body will heal.

As for training: Your form looks decent. Ditch the barbell now. You need to regress and rebuild. Start with body movements and crawling (OS Strength in spades) then progress to light KBs (SS style), after a year or two of that move to a more complex or rigorous training program if you desire. I would not plan on touching a barbell for 3 years. Read Stuart McGill, one of the premier spine biomechanics specialists in the world. I have read everything he has to offer and it is gold. McGill has rehabbed some of the most complex back issues in existence and he has lots of guidance on how to rehab. I would recommend finding a Sports Physical Therapist who specializes in rehabbing backs for athletes as they will focus on rebuilding you from the ground up.

It took me a solid three years of commitment and work to recover, but I have recovered in spades. At 38 my back is stronger than it was when I was 20. I lift heavy BB and KB 4x a week and literally have not experienced ANY pain in 4 years. It was a long and boring road though, but definitely worth it. I move better now than I ever have. I truly wish you well as back pain is miserable; remember you are investing in your back health not just for yourself but your children and grandchildren as well.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Are you currently seeing a physical therapist? It would probably be wise. While there are always great suggestions in the forum, it is hard for any of us to discern the whole picture, even for those who are qualified professionals. Be that as it may, the deadlift seems to be fine position wise. Steve has good advice on the set-up. I do notice in your press, your legs seem to be slack. Knees are slightly bent, which tells me your glutes are not being utilized correctly. Unfortunately, the lower back becomes like the smart kid in class who is forced by the bullies to do their homework. Hip flexors may be tight. Hamstrings and ankles may need some mobility work, and learning to actively drive your glutes can help take some stress off the low back. There's a great mobility drill in Deadlift Dynamite that does all three. The hip hinge with toes elevated on a 2x4, or what have you, may help. Also, learning to "root" will help your stability from the ground up. All these things will help your surrounding muscles pick up some of the slack your lower back has been forced to.

 

[Bill Been]

After watching these again, I see I might’ve shortchanged you on the Press.

One problem with having to Clean the weight to Press it is that it’s difficult to subsequently assume the proper Press grip. The proper Press grip creates vertical forearms which is much narrower tha most people assume. I’m a fairly large land mammal and my Press grip width puts my index fingers right at the edge of the knurl. It’s hard to Clean with that grip width. Then;

Your wrists are too extended - that is, rotated back towards your face. Flex them forward until the bar is sitting on the bones of the heel of your hand with the load translating straight down your forearm. Then;

Move your elbows VERY slightly in front of the bar. The radius bone of your forearm is a weird beast. This elbow position is actually what it takes to make the radius vertical. Then;

MORE ABS. With the rack position and grip sorted, take a BIG breath and hold it and contract all the musculature on the front side of your body. Quads to lock your knees and contract your abs like you’re about to get hit in the stomach with a baseball bat. Then aim for your nose and press it to lockout. Lockout is probably a little forward of where you drove it to here. And don’t push your head “through” or foreword. Aim for your nose on the way down as well. The next rep is simpler is you bring the bar down close to your face while thinking “elbows...wrists”. Elbows foreword, wrists re-extended, abs/quads, big breath, GO!

 

[freeflowme]

@freeflowme, I do not teach the deadlift the way you're doing it, nor does PTTP. I highly recommend you follow PTTP's instructions. Get tight enough at the top that it's difficult to get down to the bar, flat back and pressurized midsection at all times, and let all that tension work for you on the way back up. Fall with the weight by pushing your hips back, staying tight and pressurized and with a flat back as the bar falls. Get used to hinging at the hips with a flat back.

-S-

Thanks for the reply. Though I have read PTTP multiple times and am currently still doing PTTP with DL and OHP 5 days/week, my DL set up is learned from Starting Strength. This is perhaps because I first learned to DL from SS, but also because there are so many videos out there that use Rippetoe's 5 point set up as their basis, making it easier to learn from them online. I don't want to sound blasphemous to Pavel and The Party, but there we are. Perhaps at the start of next cycle I should try setting up following PTTP cues and see if that goes better. Even so, I find myself conflicted. In PTTP Pavel definitely demonstrates looking to the ceiling with a decidedly not-neutral neck position, while above in this very thread someone critiqued me for using that neck position and said it should be more neutral. Basically, I feel like there's so many different perspectives on every aspect of the DL that its hard to know who to follow.

After watching these again, I see I might’ve shortchanged you on the Press.

One problem with having to Clean the weight to Press it is that it’s difficult to subsequently assume the proper Press grip. The proper Press grip creates vertical forearms which is much narrower tha most people assume. I’m a fairly large land mammal and my Press grip width puts my index fingers right at the edge of the knurl. It’s hard to Clean with that grip width. Then;

Your wrists are too extended - that is, rotated back towards your face. Flex them forward until the bar is sitting on the bones of the heel of your hand with the load translating straight down your forearm. Then;

Move your elbows VERY slightly in front of the bar. The radius bone of your forearm is a weird beast. This elbow position is actually what it takes to make the radius vertical. Then;

MORE ABS. With the rack position and grip sorted, take a BIG breath and hold it and contract all the musculature on the front side of your body. Quads to lock your knees and contract your abs like you’re about to get hit in the stomach with a baseball bat. Then aim for your nose and press it to lockout. Lockout is probably a little forward of where you drove it to here. And don’t push your head “through” or foreword. Aim for your nose on the way down as well. The next rep is simpler is you bring the bar down close to your face while thinking “elbows...wrists”. Elbows foreword, wrists re-extended, abs/quads, big breath, GO!

Thanks for the advice. I agree that it is suboptimal to have to clean into a press - both in terms of hand position and because I'm not exactly expert at the movement of the clean itself, though I feel I am improving. I will try to press from a more wrists straight, bar wresting on the base of the palm directly over the forearm position. I can't recall where I heard / watched someone saying that the head should "push through" at the top of a press, but I took that as gospel in the beginning and thought that finishing with the head through was good form / full mobility of the movement / good for developing strength through the whole range of motion. I'll try to remember and find where I heard that.