Kettlebell Lockout in the snatch (Q&D)

[Mannc]

I tried Q&D yesterday and I like it a lot, but still I can't quite understand how the snatch-lockout is ought to be performed
As far as I am concerned you should go as fast as possible with a complete lockout at the top,
so I threw the bell up and down like a mad man. Now the following question arises:

Are we supposed to really catch the snatch at the top or just throw it up and then pull it back down when the elbow is straight and everything is motionless for a split second?


As I used gymnastics grips for the first time I can't really tell if I caught the bell in a bottoms-up position for a couple of reps, but I definitively had that thing motionless without it touching my forearm.
How am I supposed to snatch maximally explosive without having that happen?
I know it may sound stupid to someone who knows what he's talking about, but I'm confused

 

[CoreyW]

There is a thread that harald motz posted videos in, that showed the different snatch speeds between Q and D and A+A. I thought I had saved that thread, but apparently not. Maybe someone else here will post a link to that thread. I have been practicing A+A style snatches and it cleared up a lot for me.

 

[william bad butt]

This one?

Kettlebell - KBell Snatch: A&A, Q&D, ...?

Hi. I just finished a powerlifting cycle and competed. It went well, goals were accomplished, and I have been resting the last couple of weeks (enjoying being lazy!). I am looking forward to transitioning to a more GPP focused program until next year (maybe as late as next Spring). I've...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[CoreyW]

Yes!

 

[Bauer]

Here are some examples from @Arryn Grogan and his partner Holly:


Lockout comparison:


And a slightly more relaxed Q&D pace:


Aaand another one (Arryn's lockout is a bit too far forward, as they write in the caption)

 

[Papa Georgio]

Take this with a grain of salt because I've only dabbled with the 044 program, but I thought the intent for 044/q&d was supposed to feel like a sprint. And the sprint part should be an accelerated pull down on the drop. All the other technical aspects still apply. (Hip pop, taming arc, lockout, etc). Crazy flailing not allowed. One of the reasons you need to be relatively advanced to get much out of it. JMO

 

[Oscar]

As I used gymnastics grips for the first time I can't really tell if I caught the bell in a bottoms-up position for a couple of reps, but I definitively had that thing motionless without it touching my forearm.

This is not right and I think it might be dangerous with a heavy weight. In the snatch the lockout has to be with the bell against your forearm, not bottoms up. If this is happening to you, you should work on your snatch technique before tackling Q&D snatches.

 

[Van Der Merve]

As I understand it the emphasis is on the power of each rep, not trying to squeeze the reps in in the shortest time possible. Proper lockout requires half a second, and that includes straight arm and the upright position of the body. You are not going to gain anything by shortening it to, say, 0.2 of a second.

 

[Norville Barnes]

Each rep should be crisp and powerful, not rushed. The ten reps take me 20-22 seconds.

Gymnastic grips???

 

[Mannc]

Thank you all! I appreciate your support.
It really helped me to understand what we are trying to achieve technique-wise


So apparently one should not turn into a cheetah hunting (just trying to be as fast as possible).
That leads me to the following two conclusions:

1) That means I'll probably take a kettlebell one size heavier, as the velocity of the kettlebell is limited by technique
and my force output on the concentric part of will thus be determined by the weight of the kettlebell.
My effort on actively lowering the bell will then determine the force I'll have to absorb during the eccentric portion of the snatch,
which leads me to the conclusion that in order to maximize power output as intended (in Q&D) one should use the heaviest kettlebell he's
able to snatch with crisp form for the given number of repetitions.

2) I'll stick to the weight or maybe use an even lighter load to minimize the time it'll take to complete the given amount of reps to increase power output that way.

I'll probably measure the time it takes me to complete the task for a couple of different weights, calculate the power output and then compare the results to decide what to do next
(Yes, I'm aware that the book contains information about the length of the "bursts" as well, I'm just trying not to leak any content)

Gymnastic grips???

Yes, I figured if gymnasts use them to protect their skin, I could try them as well.
Not the "manliest" thing in existence I know, but there's nothing manlier than whining and complaining about ripped calluses and not being able to practice ?
(Calluses tend to rip faster at subzero temperatures in my experience)

 

[Anna C]

+1 for Holly & Arryn -- incredibly great examples of ideal snatch form and technique. There are other great examples out there, but that good + that heavy is extremely rare, and they provide great videos and commentary. It's also incredibly helpful to see the differences in anthropometry between them (note - not gender - that doesn't matter). I visited them in November we did a few heavy snatch repeats on the famous patio to test their new GO BALLISTIC program. It was just as fun as it looks!

 

[Van Der Merve]

+1 for Holly & Arryn -- incredibly great examples of ideal snatch form and technique. There are other great examples out there, but that good + that heavy is extremely rare, and they provide great videos and commentary. It's also incredibly helpful to see the differences in anthropometry between them (note - not gender - that doesn't matter). I visited them in November we did a few heavy snatch repeats on the famous patio to test their new GO BALLISTIC program. It was just as fun as it looks!

Anna, I am afraid I disagree with you in regards to the "great examples of ideal form and technique". I think there is too much squat, especially in the first two videos. Compare it with the video below - Ivan Markov setting world record, 225 reps with 32 kg.



In spite of crazy tempo and the duration his lockout is perfect. His knees barely bend, and at the bottom of the swing it is the distal part of the forearm that comes in contact with his crotch - compared to the elbow on the Holly and Arryn's videos!

I don't intend to spark another hardstyle vs. girevoy sport technique discussion, which is pretty pointless. Snatch, like a swing, is a hinge movement, and technique shouldn't change because of the weight or a purpose of lifting. If you fast forward this video closer to the end you will see that Markov's technique does deteriorate and he starts squatting, but this is after 100 plus reps in five minutes, and it happens because the grip starts giving up. Given low rep count and short duration of the set in snatching hardstyle this should not happen at all.

Check the video of the same guy snatching 40 kg with left arm. The technique is pretty much the same.

 

[Anna C]

Anna, I am afraid I disagree with you in regards to the "great examples of ideal form and technique". I think there is too much squat, especially in the first two videos. Compare it with the video below - Ivan Markov setting world record, 225 reps with 32 kg.

I don't intend to spark another hardstyle vs. girevoy sport technique discussion, which is pretty pointless.

But that's what it is -- hardstyle vs. GS. Notice the forward movement of the legs on the upswing in GS -- we don't do that in hardstyle. The power comes from the "jump" movement, thus, more knee bend.

Hardstyle is about power development, GS is about endurance/efficiency.

Here is a good side by side comparison and this video has good explanation in the comments:

 

[Van Der Merve]

Hardstyle is about power development, GS is about endurance/efficiency.

Do you reckon that girevik doesn't generate power when he is snatching 40 kg for ninety reps in five minutes? Incidentally, it is the same 20 reps per minute as in the RoP test, which I understand is one of the basic tests of hardstyle.

I think the reason people use "snatch squat" is exactly the lack of strength to do it properly. Similar to good morning out of the squat.

 

[Anna C]

Do you reckon that girevik doesn't generate power when he is snatching 40 kg for ninety reps in five minutes? I

No, I don't think that at all...of course it takes power to do it no matter how you do it. The snatch styles are about 96% the same. It's the 4% emphasis that is different. "Style" is the key word. And of course every individual is free to snatch the way they like...

 

[Papa Georgio]

@Van Der Merve
Hardstyle emphasizes explosiveness in the hips, and as Anna pointed out, GS is just trying to conserve momentum. Totally different objectives. Hardstyle also features an additional pull (taming the arc) and kind of a push (punching through). Hip hinge is still an important aspect of the HS snatch, but with the more vertical trajectory of the HS snatch, more knee bend will be needed the heavier you go to preserve the other aspects. If GS is what you're after, then I don't think this is the right community to support that. If you are interested is HS, I'd encourage you to find a certified instructor to help you with your technique. In the mean time, you could post a video of your snatching technique, and some of the instructors can provide you feedback. Good Luck!

 

[Sean M]

Why are GS people always so insufferable?

 

[Oscar]

In hardstyle we attempt to tame the arch, and the bell travels very close to the body. As the path is mostly vertical, up and down, the hinge becomes more vertical as well, therefore more squatty.

In GS the bell travels a circular path, similar to the hardstyle swing. Therefore, at the time of hinging, the bell is moving in an horizontal direction, and allows a more pure hinge (less squatty), compared to the vertical motion and squatty hinge of the snatch.

In my experience, the more I tame the arch and lean backwards to let the bell drop vertically, the more squatty my hinge becomes.

@Anna C @Steve W. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Bauer]

In hardstyle we attempt to tame the arch, and the bell travels very close to the body. As the path is mostly vertical, up and down, the hinge becomes more vertical as well, therefore more squatty.

And as far as I can see a lot of strong folks around here emphasize the athletic hinge (with a little bit more knee bend), even in swings. Looks more like jumping motion than a Good Morning.

An Explanation of the Athletic Hip Hinge | StrongFirst

The athletic hip hinge is without a doubt the biggest bang for the buck you can get in the athletic world: strength, power, resilience, health, corrective.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Anna C]

In my experience, the more I tame the arch and lean backwards to let the bell drop vertically, the more squatty my hinge becomes.

@Anna C @Steve W. What are your thoughts on this?

Yes, makes sense... Most heavy snatchers also report more squat (more knee bend, anyway) as the bell gets heavier. A bit towards a barbell snatch, actually... Power has to come from somewhere, and a forceful hip extension generates most of it, but there is more available at the knees and ankles. We don't do triple extension -- the feet normally stay on the ground, so there's not complete ankle extension but there is actually a little bit of force production from the feet pushing into the ground. More knee extension can add upward force as well, like when we jump high vertically.