Barbell Stiff legged deadlift form critique

[Arthur Fleck]

Just looking for opinions on how Im executing the movement.

Anything good, bad or indifferent?

 

[IMayAgainKnowChris]

Welcome to the forum!
I’m not an expert or trainer or anything and I’m new to the forum but your back is def rounded a lot. I’ve always had issues w a rounded upper back but it’s getting better as I work on my KB swings. Haven’t deadlifted in a long time. The trap bar helped me with that though so I could pull weight and not have poor form. I’ve hurt myself many times DLing with a rounded back like that. Be careful.
You’ll get better advice on here than I can give though.
Also. I hate to sound obtuse but should your legs Be a little... stiffer? Less bent?

 

[watchnerd]

Just looking for opinions on how Im executing the movement.

Anything good, bad or indifferent?

Hips not back far enough, back waaaaaaay too rounded.

Is there a reason why you're doing them from the floor instead of from the hang / rack?

Typical programming is to use them similar to RDLs, from the top down.

Some people do them from the floor, but you need to have excellent hamstring mobility to do that without back rounding.

If you don't have the hamstring flexibility to do them from the floor without rounding your back, you should probably do them from the hang with a flat back, going no further down than you can go until your back starts to round.

 

[Arthur Fleck]

i always thought back rounding was sought when doing stiff legged deadlifts, purposefully putting the back in an incorrect position to build the erectors, im basing my form off this video

 

[watchnerd]

i always thought back rounding was sought when doing stiff legged deadlifts, purposefully putting the back in an incorrect position to build the erectors, im basing my form off this video

If you want to pull like strongmen do, you're right -- their style allows for it. But they also have higher deadlift injury rates.

Powerlifting (most, but not all), Olympic weightlifting, and general fitness, it's usually frowned upon.

If your goal is to strengthen your erectors, and not be a strong man, you'll build them plenty by using the more conventional braced lower back.

 

[watchnerd]

i always thought back rounding was sought when doing stiff legged deadlifts, purposefully putting the back in an incorrect position to build the erectors, im basing my form off this video

Check out these points:

"Like arching in the bench press, maximal deadlifting with a slightly rounded back is a controversial and situational lift.

• Is it something new lifters should be doing? No.
• Is it something you should ignore in training? No.
• Should you practice neutral spine pulling so you have a higher rate of carry over in heavy pulls? Yes.
• Is there a time and place when competitive (elite) lifters can experience it/utilize it? Yes."

Elite Powerlifters Discuss Deadlifting With a Rounded Back | BarBend

Is maximal deadlifting with a slightly rounded back okay? We some of the best powerlifters in the game to share their thoughts.

barbend.com

If you read the article, you'll see there is a strong difference of opinion on the panel between thoracic vs lumbar rounding.

Either way, if you're not an elite total lifter (~300+ kg DL at your height and weight), you don't need to do it.

 

[Arthur Fleck]

Good advice, thank you. I am only a recreational lifter looking to just get strong and be in better shape, I'll never be competing in strongman or powerlifting I can assure you of that!

Heres a video of my conventional deadlift, I still suffer from rounding on this lift I cant see to ever set my lower back no matter what, any advice on what to do here, how best to improve?

 

[Steve Freides]

I would raise the bar off the ground so that you _can_ set your back flat, and add weight there. Then drop the weight and lower the bar a little and cycle through from light to heavy weights again, and so on.

One can buy deadlift blocks - I have these, bought used for not a lot of money, and they work well.

DC Blocks

DC Blocks are stackable, compact lifting blocks built from a virtually indestructible blend of recycled plastics. Get yours today at Rogue!

www.roguefitness.com

You could also do what the oldtimers did - lift outside, dig a hole to stand in, and gradually add dirt as you flexibility improves.

I very highly recommend the StrongFirst Barbell Course for you, or working with one of our instructors in person.

-S-

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

If you want to pull like strongmen do, you're right -- their style allows for it

Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding

Research (Dr Bret Contreras) determined that in a Heavy Traditional Conventional Deadlift...

1) Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding allows the lifter to keep the bar in closer to the Body's Center of Gravity.

Keeping the bar in close to the Body's Center of Gravity decreases Torque.

The farther the bar is from the Body's Center of Gravity the greater the Torque, bar weight is magnified beyond it true weight.

2) Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding isn't an issue, for the most part.

3) Low Rounding is an issue and need to be avoided.

This is the article that goes more into it.

A Strong Case For the Rounded Back Deadlift | T Nation

Always pull with a neutral spine. Well, maybe not always. Info here.

www.t-nation.com

.

There is another article that provide some similar information the coincides with Contreras.

With that said there are essentially two types of...

Conventional Deadlift

1) Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift

1) Many Powerlifter utilize some Upper Back Rounding because allows the lifter to keep the bar closer to the Body's Center of Gravity.

1) The Powerlifting Conventional Deadlift also employs more of the back.

Research by Dr Tom McLauhlin (PhD Biomechanics) determined that with the Powerlifting Deadlift, the back breaks the weight off the floor,

The muscle firing sequence is Back > Legs > Back.

Trying Leg Press the weight off the floor is counter productive for moving a Heavy Deadlift. Contreras mentioned this in his article; reinforcing McLaughlin's findin.

2) Olympic Conventional Deadlift

In this Conventional Deadlift, leg drive initiates breaking the weight off the floor. It allows Olympic Lifter to maintain an optimal position for the Second Pull; the Powerlifting Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding is counter productive for this.

Let now circle back to the...

Stiff Leg Deadlift

Some Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding is fine for Stiff Leg (slight break in the knees) Deadlift.

It definitely engages and works the Thoracic (Upper Back).

Good Mornings

In performing Heavy Partial Good Mornings, I employ some Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding. It has increase my Thoracic (Upper) Back Maximum Strength.

8 New Exercises for a Thicker, Stronger Back

Deadlifts and rows will build an impressive back, but targeting the thoracic extensors will take your back to the next level. When it comes to squatting and deadlifting strength, the thoracic extensors play an even greater role in stabilizing the spine than the abdominals. And while many...

www.t-nation.com

This is a good article by Contreras on how to increase Thoracic (Upper ) Back Strength.

The videos demonstrated in the article demonstrate employing upper back rounding in these exercise; the same, when Thoracic (Upper Back Rounding occurs in Conventional and Stiff Leg Deadlifts an my altered Thoracic Rounding Good Mornings.

...they also have higher deadlift injury rates.

Based On What Information?

Based on the fact that Powerlifter perform more heavy Deadlifts than most individual, most likely they will have injuries.

That is true of heavy training with all heavy movements.

With that said, ...

"Despite the fact that the deadlift exercise seems to cause the majority of powerlifting injuries,6 8, there is only a limited amount of research reporting the occurrence of specific injuries."

"Only 3 of the 38 studies reported a suboptimal lifting technique to be the cause of injury.24 28 29 Notably, heavy load 24 and fatigue 28 29 were also emphasised as contributing factors in those cases." Source: Narrative review of injuries in powerlifting with special reference to their association to the squat, bench press and deadlift.

Muscle Fatigue

McLaughlin stated in one of his Powerlfiting Deadlift article that the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

This is one of the predominate cause of injuries in any movement, especially with the lower back.

Summary

1) Some Thoracic (Upper) Back Rounding is fine.

a) Iit increases your Upper Back Strength.

b) It keep the bar in closter to your Body's Center of Gravity; decrease Torque.

2) Lower Back Rounding is an issue and needs to be avoided.

3) The Lower Back is quickly and easily overtrained. That is one of the reason most Powerlifter only Deadift once a wee

 

[watchnerd]

Good advice, thank you. I am only a recreational lifter looking to just get strong and be in better shape, I'll never be competing in strongman or powerlifting I can assure you of that!

Heres a video of my conventional deadlift, I still suffer from rounding on this lift I cant see to ever set my lower back no matter what, any advice on what to do here, how best to improve?

+1 to everything Steve said.

I'm a weightlifter, not a powerlifter, but in weightlifting we do a lot of Romanian Deadlifts (RDL) from the hang to simultaneously work on isometric lower back bracing and hitting the hams and glutes from a stretched position, which will increase your ROM over time.

You can go fairly heavy with RDLs for reps as long as you maintain good form and stop the descent as soon as you get a hint of back rounding. Your hams and glutes can take a beating, so the limiting factor will be your ability to control your lower back. Use straps if you need to.

Beware, though, the DOMS from RDLs are vicious.

 

[watchnerd]

Based On What Information?

Based on the fact that Powerlifter perform more heavy Deadlifts than most individual, most likely they will have injuries.

That is true of heavy training with all heavy movements.

With that said, ...

"Despite the fact that the deadlift exercise seems to cause the majority of powerlifting injuries,6 8, there is only a limited amount of research reporting the occurrence of specific injuries."

"Only 3 of the 38 studies reported a suboptimal lifting technique to be the cause of injury.24 28 29 Notably, heavy load 24 and fatigue 28 29 were also emphasised as contributing factors in those cases." Source: Narrative review of injuries in powerlifting with special reference to their association to the squat, bench press and deadlift.

Re-read what I said:

"If you want to pull like strongmen do, you're right -- their style allows for it. But they also have higher deadlift injury rates."

The reference was to strongmen, who have 2x the injury rate of powerlifters.

Source: July, 2014 edition of "Strength and Conditioning Research" journal, Chris Beardsley's meta-analysis on relative injury rates.

 

[Hung]

I'm a weightlifter, not a powerlifter, but in weightlifting we do a lot of Romanian Deadlifts (RDL) from the hang to simultaneously work on isometric lower back bracing and hitting the hams and glutes from a stretched position, which will increase your ROM over time.

I'm curious, what about the good-morning? Can it be used instead of RDL for that role? And how often you guys use that in the training?

Beware, though, the DOMS from RDLs are vicious.

This!

 

[watchnerd]

I'm curious, what about the good-morning? Can it be used instead of RDL for that role? And how often you guys use that in the training?

I use both.

They're fairly similar, but have slightly different emphasis and loading.

If I just want to maximally load my erectors, I'll use a GM.

If I want to pattern bar path and/or work on grip while also practicing a portion of a pull, I'll go RDL.

Greg Everett at Catalyst Athletics compares and contrasts them this way:

 

[Arthur Fleck]

on the subject of good mornings I also took a video of me doing these:



Would these be a better safer alternative than stiff legged deads to build erectors and the posterior chain in general?

 

[Arthur Fleck]

I seem to be able to keep my back in a safer position doing these.

 

[IMayAgainKnowChris]

on the subject of good mornings I also took a video of me doing these:



Would these be a better safer alternative than stiff legged deads to build erectors and the posterior chain in general?

I’m not an expert here but I know good mornings can be severely dangerous if not performed properly. Bruce Lee got taken out for a few months because of them. Are you just looking for targeted lower back exercises? What’s the goal?

 

[Arthur Fleck]

I have no serious goal really, I suppose my goals would fall under the category of aesthetics and just to get fitter and healthier.

I uploaded the videos because I never felt comfortable deadlifting so wanted a form critique, any time I deadlift or do any sort of hip hinge my back feels tight and crampy during and after if you no what I mean, so just looking for anything I could maybe do better in order to improve it.

I actually find the good mornings to be the least troublesome, but I do no they are controversial too.

 

[Hung]

t I know good mornings can be severely dangerous if not performed properly. Bruce Lee got taken out for a few months because of them.

Every exercise could be dangerous if not performed properly.
"Any exercise that is completely safe usually is useless to build strength". - Louie Simmons
Also, Bruce did tons of activities. I'm not sure that blaming good-morning for his lower back injury is right (the load on the good morning was small, according on his book). It could be the final straw on the dragon back.

 

[Hung]

I uploaded the videos because I never felt comfortable deadlifting so wanted a form critique, any time I deadlift or do any sort of hip hinge my back feels tight and crampy during and after if you no what I mean, so just looking for anything I could maybe do better in order to improve it.

Good-morning is nice exercise. As long as you not rushing increase the weight, I think it would be fine.
Personally, since last month, I use good-morning as the main hip hinge exercise.
You can save the deadlift for latter, when you hamstring less tight, your posterial chain is stronger and your hip hinge groove is better. Then the deadlift (which could be loaded heavy) is probably more suitable than the good-morning.

 

[Anna C]

i always thought back rounding was sought when doing stiff legged deadlifts, purposefully putting the back in an incorrect position to build the erectors, im basing my form off this video

From the video quoted above, "you round the middle of the back while keeping an arch in the lower back" 2:04. Hmm....

So, it seems he actually does this, though it's hard to see. At 3:45 just as he lifts the weight you can see his middle back is rounded but then his low back gets tight... some would call an arch... some would call extension... either way, it's as he described, and I would say that is a GOOD thing to have (and apparently he thinks so too). You do not have that in your example in the first post, @Arthur Fleck - it doesn't appear to me that your low back is tight. So I think that would be the correction that most of us are trying to get you to do, and also corresponds with the video you're trying to follow.

This same thing applies to squats, regular deadlifts, and good mornings. The lower back muscles need to be tight. That's one of the primary things you're trying to train with all of those lifts. So it's essential to learn to control these muscles in getting in the start position and holding it as you lift the weight.

If you're standing or sitting, can you tip your pelvis forward without changing anything else? Those are the lower back erectors that need to get tight. Mark Rippetoe says that most men, older men especially, don't have conscious control of these muscles. He has a number of exercises that can help find them. I know I used to not be very good at it myself but I have improved a lot over the last few years.

Back to the video instructions, "round the middle of the back while keeping an arch in the lower back"... This is actually a pretty tricky thing to do. And I'm with most of the commenters -- I'd rather not have any of the back rounded for any kind of deadlift, though there are some legitimate reasons to and it can be done safely under some circumstances, most of the time for general strength training it's better to keep the back "flat" or neutral, which requires actively extending it using the muscles since the weight is trying to flex it or pull it the other way.

I suppose my goals would fall under the category of aesthetics and just to get fitter and healthier.

My vote would also be for regular deadlifts, with the bar elevated to the point where you can set your back well and pull with a good back position, working your way towards the floor over the course of a few weeks or months as your movement improves.