Bodyweight "waving" GTG for pullups? Other strategies?

[crazycanuck]

With GTG methods for bodyweight moves like pullups, is there a method/suggestion for progressing # reps done over an entire day (with understanding that one needs to be rested prior to each rep, and when reps done depend on one's circumstances eg: before/after work, vs one being at home for the day).

Background:

-female

-can currently get any one given rep at varying ranges, depending (from underside of chin on bar, to adam's apple level, to between adam's apple and clavicles)

-have been practicing both full - from the bottom position, or jumping up to 90 degrees at the elbow and pulling over the bar, lowering to 90 degrees, and pulling back over (usually only can just get chin over bar second pull).... trying this as the top of movement is weaker point.

-more seriously started increasing GTG starting end of Aug/beginning of Sept....last week had 10 reps per day (mix of both types of movement I mentioned), this past week 12, goal this week was 14, but have not been meeting this so far. No obvious "knots" or back pain per se, but back in general feeling fatigued last several days. Not sure if there is a maximum # of reps in this GTG...I mean do people pump out 25 or 30 reps if they can (?)... to be had but that would be likely different for everyone of course.

-Only other workout I do is having achieved Timeless Simple, now going for Timed, with one L and R of 28kg work set in there, and one 20kg getup in sequence so far to aid in timed test Fridays. Work shiftwork, some physicality involved but not extremely heavy (eg: compared to trades, construction work etc).

-I have a set of rings at home now which I have (admittedly, pretty sporadically) done things like rows at varying foot positions, heights of rings etc.


GOAL:

*3 (or maybe even up to 5) solid consecutive pullups by 50th birthday (end Jan 2021)

Have recently attempted 2 consecutive pullups, 2nd one was very difficult and only got tip of nose to bar. Have set a 6-week-later test date in end of Oct to reassess status.


As I mentioned just overall sensing some nagging fatigue in the back (lats pretty much). Given goal, wondering if anyone has any advice or suggestions/experiences. Another scheme I have come across ....I have this written in my paper workout journal at home, and am not sure if anyone has any experience with this scheme.... @Steve Freides --from a past post on the forums, my (maybe incorrect ) memory attributes this response to you, not sure if this appears to be familiar:

****Pullup progression****

-- 1 every 2 to 3 days
-- 1 two days in a row, with 1 day off
--1 most days of the week
-- some days more than one, minimum 30 min rest between, several hours better, other days 1, or a day off
--2 per day, more than one day a week. 3 some days, 4 some days, 5 some days....
--more than 1 in 30 min, working to more than one with 3-5 min rest in between
--more than one in a set*

(* I take it that more than one in a set means eg: 2 consecutive in a row, as your "set")


If you need more background/history just ask, I tried to include contributing factors and such.

Obviously, there is more than "one way to skin a cat" here, and I thought I would bring this to an area of the forum where I know some people more expert than I reside. Thanks guys!

 

[pet']

Hello,

Without changing the daily volume, on some days, you can hit all your reps in a shorter time frame (all the reps done in a 3h window instead of a 6h window for example)

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Steve Freides]

@crazycanuck, variety in volume is good, especially since your max reps is 1. When you're GTG'ing with singles and a single is your max, it's all to easy to overtrain. I don't know you and your training history, but I'll suggest this: a 3-day rotation of 2 singles, 3 singles, 5 singles. Do that twice a week and take one day off. Take extra days off as you feel the need.

10 reps in a day sounds like a lot to me if they're all with a 1RM exercise - you mention some variations in conjunction with your higher volume, and that's OK if it's working for you, but it wouldn't be my recommendation. I'd go for low volume of the thing you're trying to get better at, and make your focus improving the quality of each rep. E.g., try to pullup faster. Try to hold for 1-2 seconds at a solid top position, chin clearly over the bar and you're motionless. Try to control your descent, being slowest through the parts where you're weakest. Improving the quality of your reps will eventually yield in an increase in the quantity of them.

The idea here is that once you establish a standard for yourself, you don't GTG with anything less than a top-quality rep.

You can progress the numbers as your ability improves, e.g., if you can get more than 5 good reps in a day, then perhaps you move to 2-3-6, or perhaps 1-3-6, which even though it's the same volume as 2-3-5, is overall better.

And last but not least, when you feel like you've made enough progress this way, after you've had a day off, try again to see if you can actually get that double, so maybe it's 2-off-double_attempt one time, and then you can see about something like 2 singles, 3 singles, 1 double and 3 singles, and progress that way.

Just some thoughts for you - if you give it a go, let us know how it works out for you.

And one last thought - tying into what I posted in another thread yesterday, if you want to experiment, try ending each PU session with a set of goblet or front squats. Start easily, e.g., maybe you just do that after your last GTG rep on the high volume day.

-S-

 

[crazycanuck]

@crazycanuck I'll suggest this: a 3-day rotation of 2 singles, 3 singles, 5 singles. Do that twice a week and take one day off. Take extra days off as you feel the need.

I can see your point about the overtraining, especially with a 1 rep max, overall after some self-assessment it has been starting to feel like that.

I need to clarify this.... the singles (2, 3, 5)...is this in a day? That was my original take on reading this, but I am a bit confused by the twice a week reference...I am picturing 2 singles one day, 3 the next, etc for a total of 3 days a week, days off between depending, especially if need a fair bit of rest between singles. Or am I missing something here?

And one last thought - tying into what I posted in another thread yesterday, if you want to experiment, try ending each PU session with a set of goblet or front squats. Start easily, e.g., maybe you just do that after your last GTG rep on the high volume day.

I am curious about the goblet squats and the correlation, I do not do a lot of them in S&S anymore, lighter just for prying/mobilty, the odd time a set of 3 or so of 24kg. Any particular weight, is this to build general "fortitude"?

 

[Erik Hournou]

@crazycanuck
The way I read it is:
Day singles
Mon 2
Tue 3
Wed 5
Thu 2
Fri 3
Sat 5
Sun 0
And from what I understand, the squats stimulate the upper body gains.

 

[Steve Freides]

I need to clarify this.... the singles (2, 3, 5)...is this in a day?

No.

I am picturing 2 singles one day, 3 the next, etc for a total of 3 days a week, days off between depending, especially if need a fair bit of rest between singles.

Yes, that's my suggestion.

I am curious about the goblet squats and the correlation, I do not do a lot of them in S&S anymore, lighter just for prying/mobilty, the odd time a set of 3 or so of 24kg. Any particular weight, is this to build general "fortitude"?

It helps with adding a little upper body muscle. I'd go for a single set of 5 with a weight you could do 8-10 with. Front squat or goblet squat. Solid stop at the bottom of each, solid lockout at the top of each. Think crisp reps, not too fast, not too slow, not too taxing.

IOW, what @Erik Hournou said.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

BTW, credit to Pavel's "Return of the Kettlebell" for the "squat chaser" idea.

-S-

 

[bluejeff]

I remember the other thread, but I don't remember if you said if you ever work rows...?

I coached at a calisthenics-oriented gym and people who plateaued for long periods of time were consistently the students who were always working close to their max capacity in some form, whether it was reps or max strength.

If a single pull up is your max, perhaps switching to or integrating in some horizontal body rows would be helpful? Not standing horizontal rows (bent over rows) but rows where your fixed point (bar, rings, etc) is above you and you are more or less doing a reverse pushup motion (some might call them inverted rows I believe?). This would allow you to accumulate more pulling volume at a lower intensity, and you can wave your load more easily by bending your knees, keeping a straight body with feet on floor, or elevating your feet. They have the added benefit of teaching you to maintain a straight body with a tight core the way you would in a pullup, as well as teaching you to pull from your back. Standing rows take those factors away.

I did body rows almost exclusively for a couple years after my shoulder surgery and when I transitioned to pullups they went up easily.

 

[bluejeff]

I have a set of rings at home now which I have (admittedly, pretty sporadically) done things like rows at varying foot positions, heights of rings etc.

Oops haha, don't know how I missed this! Regardless, mixing in rows is my two cents. You could do something like:
-GTG pullups for 2-3 singles, later followed by GTG rows for higher reps (5-10)
OR
-Alternate days, pullup singles one day, rows the next, then a rest day, then repeat, or something along those lines

 

[Whosonfirst]

For us low-reps pullup people, I'm still a fan of working assisted pullups into the mix, like a bodybuilder. Not every workout, but twice a week. In the 5-8 rep range. I think a little hypertrophy helps if we're also doing a pure strength move, like a full wt. pullup. I like the bent rows suggestion also. You'll get there.

 

[bluejeff]

I'm still a fan of working assisted pullups into the mix, like a bodybuilder. Not every workout, but twice a week

Also a great idea. This is akin to training one arm pushups by elevating the surface you are pushing from. Creating a counterweight system (as opposed to bands) would be a good method. That way you can easily track your progress while getting more volume in.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

If you want to work on rep quality, visualisation might also help.

I've been playing around with visualising how my pull will be powerful and strong. How I will go up fast and completely clear the bar. Chasing any doubt away from your mind about how the rep will go. It will be perfect, you have rehearsed it in your mind, you have succeeded and are proud of yourself.

I now do this before every set and whenever I am bored at work and my mind wanders. I've only started doing this last week though but it seems to help every rep be crisp and strong.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

You might try and cycle from low volume strength work to higher volume mass building. So doing something like what Steve suggests (2-3-5-rest-2-3-5) for 2 weeks then doing rows or feet assisted pull-ups (they work with rings too) for something like 5x5 or even more.

In Beyond Bodybuilding Pavel talks about doing 2 week blocks instead of doing everything at once. The same thing appears in this article about chin-ups and dips.

How to Train for Mass With Chins and Dips | StrongFirst

Training for mass without barbells is tricky. I designed this program to create mass with chins and dips. It’s a serious strength plan for the upper body.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Whosonfirst]

Also a great idea. This is akin to training one arm pushups by elevating the surface you are pushing from. Creating a counterweight system (as opposed to bands) would be a good method. That way you can easily track your progress while getting more volume in.

I liked the OAPU board @Benjamin Renaud made. After reaching my first pullup goal, hopefully by late in the year, I may make one. The side of my PowerTek rack would be perfect in that it already has holes every 3 or 4 inches and heavy pins that a board could rest on. I'd only need the board, and a capture slot on bottom to lock onto the cross pins.

 

[Steve Freides]

I liked the OAPU board @Benjamin Renaud made.

Link?

-S-

 

[Whosonfirst]

Link?

-S-

@Benjamin Renaud posted this DIY equipment that he built. DIY Stall Bar with construction file. Pull-up/dip attachment

 

[Boosh32]

-can currently get any one given rep at varying ranges, depending (from underside of chin on bar, to adam's apple level, to between adam's apple and clavicles)

I think you would benefit from GTG negative pullups. Stand on a sturdy support and assume a good top position. Ease off of the support and lower yourself in a controlled manner to the starting position. Activity rest as required and repeat if possible. Try two or three reps a GTG session at first. Do this for a week or two and then test your full pullup max reps.

 

[Carl]

@bluejeff makes some great points.

I’ve been able to do reps of pull up variants for decades but hit a plateau for a long, long time.

Paradoxically, as I stopped chasing reps, and focused on technique (and stopping sets at the sign of speed slowing etc) my reps climbed. Never spectacularly, but it was noticeable. Training this way is more enjoyable as well.

Even as a longtime Pavel/SF fan, I often have to fight the urge not to turn training sessions into a PR test. If you’re on a GTG protocol, easy and moderate are your friends.

Inverted rows are an outstanding move in their own right (in my book) so concur, mixing these in might suit your goals.

Also, watch the elbows. Pushing volume too high, too quickly might not be a good fit for you, so ease up the volume conservatively.

I remember the other thread, but I don't remember if you said if you ever work rows...?

I coached at a calisthenics-oriented gym and people who plateaued for long periods of time were consistently the students who were always working close to their max capacity in some form, whether it was reps or max strength.

If a single pull up is your max, perhaps switching to or integrating in some horizontal body rows would be helpful? Not standing horizontal rows (bent over rows) but rows where your fixed point (bar, rings, etc) is above you and you are more or less doing a reverse pushup motion (some might call them inverted rows I believe?). This would allow you to accumulate more pulling volume at a lower intensity, and you can wave your load more easily by bending your knees, keeping a straight body with feet on floor, or elevating your feet. They have the added benefit of teaching you to maintain a straight body with a tight core the way you would in a pullup, as well as teaching you to pull from your back. Standing rows take those factors away.

I did body rows almost exclusively for a couple years after my shoulder surgery and when I transitioned to pullups they went up easily.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

And one last thought - tying into what I posted in another thread yesterday, if you want to experiment, try ending each PU session with a set of goblet or front squats. Start easily, e.g., maybe you just do that after your last GTG rep on the high volume day.

Could you link that thread please?