Kettlebell Strenght Aerobics v. LSD - difference in adaptations.

[Pasibrzuch]

Hello everybody,
another energy-system conundrum I'm struggling with. Namely the difference in adaptations between kettlebell clean-press-squat Strength Aerobics and Long Slow Distance work (jogging/rucking/rowing).
Let's assume that one's goal is eccentric cardiac hypertrophy ("stretching the heart"). My uneducated guess would be that if you keep your heart rate in your aerobic zone throughout the same time-span (~40-90mins) you should get the same cardiac benefits. Of course Strength Aerobics HR graph would be more fluctuating and LSD graph more stable, but let's assume both are strictly in the aerobic zone.
However, digging the forum for some knowledge bombs I found information from a trusted source on this topic that "Nothing else compares to LED locomotive work for the resulting adaptions."
My questions are: what is the the difference in cardiac adaptations with these two different protocols? And a secondary question: what am I missing if I do Q&D/A+A and LSD but no Strength Aerobics?
Thank you in advance!

 

[Bauer]

My guess is that Al is referring to LED locomotive work as the best means to build mitochondria in slow twitch fibers, which can act as sinks for lactate and thus help you to get rid of waste material during intense sessions.

But in terms of cardiac adaptations I think there should not be that much of a difference. But I am by no means an expert on the topic.

 

[wespom9]

This is a "preload" vs "afterload" question. Simplified greatly here, dynamic exercise promotes preload (large volume of blood rushes in, stretches heart, ). RT is more afterload (ventricle expels blood against a force). Preload is more favourable to stretching heart volume, afterload ventricular thickening. It's thought that increased heart volume is a key cardiac adaptation to health. Preload is also a much lower stress to the heart (this is why in cardiac rehab, CV activity is paramount in acute and ~6-8 weeks post- event before higher stress RT is re-introduced into someone's recovery program).

You'll get some cardiac benefits yes, but it's not necessarily the same. You have to imagine a continuum - from favouring afterload (top of list) to favouring preload (bottom of list) , I would propose something like this:

Heavy lifting/lots of tension - grinds
heavier ballistics
lighter ballistics
pure CV based dynamic exercise

I will put the caveat that programming is important to know here too when determining this. But essentially, tension based exercise is not going to deliver the same adaptation to the heart itself as CV.

Without speaking for Al in the linked thread, he could be talking about MT development OR the cardiac stretching. I'm not sure.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

This is a "preload" vs "afterload" question. Simplified greatly here, dynamic exercise promotes preload (large volume of blood rushes in, stretches heart, ). RT is more afterload (ventricle expels blood against a force). Preload is more favourable to stretching heart volume, afterload ventricular thickening. It's thought that increased heart volume is a key cardiac adaptation to health. Preload is also a much lower stress to the heart (this is why in cardiac rehab, CV activity is paramount in acute and ~6-8 weeks post- event before higher stress RT is re-introduced into someone's recovery program).

You'll get some cardiac benefits yes, but it's not necessarily the same. You have to imagine a continuum - from favouring afterload (top of list) to favouring preload (bottom of list) , I would propose something like this:

Heavy lifting/lots of tension - grinds
heavier ballistics
lighter ballistics
pure CV based dynamic exercise

I will put the caveat that programming is important to know here too when determining this. But essentially, tension based exercise is not going to deliver the same adaptation to the heart itself as CV.

@wespom9 , that's what I call a knowledge bomb. Thank you very much, that really clarifies the picture.
@Bauer you might also be right. I thought the function of slow-twitch fibers you mention is improved only by ST hypertrophy training (aka slow twitch misery), not by steady state cardio. However, I see I could've been mistaken.

 

[wespom9]

Please confirm my statement with other sources, but I am fairly confident in my post

 

[vegpedlr]

Aerobic fitness is a complex system of which the heart is only one part. Endurance nerds have know for years that you can preserve a fair bit of fitness, during injury recovery or an off season by training other activities. But it’s never completely the same.

So Strength Aerobics should have much the same effect on the heart, but slow twitch fibers, mitochondria, capillaries etc will be affected differently.

I’m really fascinated by the possibility of Strength Aerobics for GPP. I think it might provide a solid foundation for a lot of activities.

I’d love to hear some stories from people who’ve tried it for awhile.

 

[wespom9]

Aerobic fitness is a complex system of which the heart is only one part. Endurance nerds have know for years that you can preserve a fair bit of fitness, during injury recovery or an off season by training other activities. But it’s never completely the same.

So Strength Aerobics should have much the same effect on the heart, but slow twitch fibers, mitochondria, capillaries etc will be affected differently.

Agreed on the first bit. Heart & Lungs don't really know the difference in what you are doing. From a health standpoint, move whatever way you can. From performance, the local muscular adaptations are specific and is why nobody wins both the Tour de France and a marathon.

I will disagree on your point about "SA having the same effect on the heart" based on my prior post. "Ballistic" aerobics would feasibly be closer due to the tension/relaxation involved to the same heart effect although still likely a little different

 

[watchnerd]

I’m really fascinated by the possibility of Strength Aerobics for GPP. I think it might provide a solid foundation for a lot of activities.

I’d love to hear some stories from people who’ve tried it for awhile.

I'd never heard the term Strength Aerobics before.

But what Pavel describes (clean, military press, front squat) is the foundation of half (the 'A' workout) of my off-season fall / winter routine (although I do more reps) that keeps my conditioning, mobility, and some explosiveness maintained before I start the spring / summer weightlifting season.

I have no idea how it effects my heart size, but my resting heart rate is in the low 50s and I'm not an endurance athlete.

 

[Reuben B]

I doubt there is research comparing strength aerobics yet. But I would expect similar structural heart changes to LSD. Those changes are a response to higher than normal average blood flow/volumes. The strength work isn't maximal, so you wouldn't experience extreme afterload pressures, and they are brief with most of the time spent at normal musculature tension and moderate cardiac output. As stated above specificity still matters and there are other changes that vary between strength aerobics/LSD.
My experience: Sessions of 30-40min typically have heart rates between 70-80% of maximal and do contribute to a lower RHR over time compared to higher intensity interval sessions.
And I think it's been discussed before.. but strength aerobics IS A&A training, isn't it?

 

[Alexander Halford]

.. but strength aerobics IS A&A training, isn't it?

No, afaiu. Strength aerobics is supposed to keep you in more or less stable hr zone, by determining appropriate w/r ratio.

 

[Anna C]

This is a "preload" vs "afterload" question. Simplified greatly here, dynamic exercise promotes preload (large volume of blood rushes in, stretches heart, ). RT is more afterload (ventricle expels blood against a force). Preload is more favourable to stretching heart volume, afterload ventricular thickening. It's thought that increased heart volume is a key cardiac adaptation to health. Preload is also a much lower stress to the heart (this is why in cardiac rehab, CV activity is paramount in acute and ~6-8 weeks post- event before higher stress RT is re-introduced into someone's recovery program).

You'll get some cardiac benefits yes, but it's not necessarily the same. You have to imagine a continuum - from favouring afterload (top of list) to favouring preload (bottom of list) , I would propose something like this:

Heavy lifting/lots of tension - grinds
heavier ballistics
lighter ballistics
pure CV based dynamic exercise

I will put the caveat that programming is important to know here too when determining this. But essentially, tension based exercise is not going to deliver the same adaptation to the heart itself as CV.

Without speaking for Al in the linked thread, he could be talking about MT development OR the cardiac stretching. I'm not sure.

Great thread and great response here by @wespom9, one of the best I've seen.

It's definitely a continuum and I would put "Strength Aerobics" in the middle of a spectrum that has low intensity steady state (LISS, also called LSD) at one end, and pure strength at the other.

Any exercise will help training your heart to be stronger, healthier, more efficient. But...

Let's assume that one's goal is eccentric cardiac hypertrophy ("stretching the heart").

I think if this is your specific goal, I think it's pretty well established that low intensity steady state is the best way.

 

[Anna C]

And I think it's been discussed before.. but strength aerobics IS A&A training, isn't it?

No, afaiu. Strength aerobics is supposed to keep you in more or less stable hr zone, by determining appropriate w/r ratio.

I agree with @Alexander Halford.

Depending on how you do it, they may be somewhat similar.... And they are similar in that you do an effort, rest, repeat many times.

But the intent (and I'll sound a bit snooty and say "if you do it right"...) of strength aerobics is a light to moderate effort (remember you use a bell you can press 10 times or more -- relatively light); you need less rest between efforts so it ends up being more of a steady state for your heart rate. A+A is a very hard and brief effort that requires 1 minute or more of recovery to repeat again and again. A+A ends up being more of an up and down for your heart rate.

 

[Erik Hournou]

I agree with @Alexander Halford.

Depending on how you do it, they may be somewhat similar.... And they are similar in that you do an effort, rest, repeat many times.

But the intent (and I'll sound a bit snooty and say "if you do it right"...) of strength aerobics is a light to moderate effort (remember you use a bell you can press 10 times or more -- relatively light); you need less rest between efforts so it ends up being more of a steady state for your heart rate. A+A is a very hard and brief effort that requires 1 minute or more of recovery to repeat again and again. A+A ends up being more of an up and down for your heart rate.

Makes me think, if we can do a set with more or less intensity with different results... could we conclude that its possible to rest with intensity as well?
One of the things ive learned doing SS is not to only wait it out, but to rest intently between sets for the best possible recovery.

 

[Reuben B]

Thank you. It always seemed a bit muddy to differentiate those two based on energy systems. But at least that clarifies common usage of the term for me.

 

[Anna C]

Makes me think, if we can do a set with more or less intensity with different results... could we conclude that its possible to rest with intensity as well?
One of the things ive learned doing SS is not to only wait it out, but to rest intently between sets for the best possible recovery.

Yes, the rest/recovery is training, too.

Pavel's Second Wind seminar teaches the physiology of relaxation. He covers aspects of this at Strong Endurance as well. The relaxation of a muscle fiber is also an energy event! Not just the contraction.

Breathing technique is a skill and also a key component of relaxation and recovery.

Walking and shaking out tension (fast & loose) between efforts is very important.

All of these things affect the training session, and thus the stress and adaptations from it, but they are hard to quantify or measure (or tell if you're doing it right). So they often don't get the attention of the reps and sets of the exercise prescription.

The heart rate dropping is a strong indicator, but isn't the complete story. Chasing a low heart rate to the exclusion of everything else may lead you to do things that are counter-productive. For example, if you lie down between efforts, your HR will drop more, but you will not recover and restore PCR as well.

This is one of the reasons it's so important to focus and pay attention during a training session. Your body gives lots of clues, but some are subtle and you have to learn to read them. Picking up your phone in between sets/repeats is not a good way...

As Pavel says, "If I see you with your phone at the gym I have nothing good to say. You do not have your priorities straight."

 

[watchnerd]

Breathing technique is a skill and also a key component of relaxation and recovery.

I've spent so much time on breathing technique in both strength training and yoga that it now shows up reflexively in weird places.

Today it showed up while I was using a hammer and crowbar to crack open a safe.

Totally weird.

 

[wespom9]

Great thread and great response here by @wespom9, one of the best I've seen.

It's definitely a continuum and I would put "Strength Aerobics" in the middle of a spectrum that has low intensity steady state (LISS, also called LSD) at one end, and pure strength at the other.

Thanks!

...strength aerobics is a light to moderate effort (remember you use a bell you can press 10 times or more -- relatively light);

I have never really done the "strength aerobics", I did not realize it was such a light RM. Knowing that, I too would place in closer to the middle than I initially thought.

 

[Erik Hournou]

I have never really done the "strength aerobics", I did not realize it was such a light RM. Knowing that, I too would place in closer to the middle than I initially thought.

I was under the same misconception, maybe I was thinking of the Rop with its 6RM bell.

 

[vegpedlr]

Today it showed up while I was using a hammer and crowbar to crack open a safe.

Not sure what to make of this . . .

 

[offwidth]

I'd never heard the term Strength Aerobics before.

But what Pavel describes (clean, military press, front squat) is the foundation of half (the 'A' workout) of my off-season fall / winter routine (although I do more reps) that keeps my conditioning, mobility, and some explosiveness maintained before I start the spring / summer weightlifting season.

I have no idea how it effects my heart size, but my resting heart rate is in the low 50s and I'm not an endurance athlete.

Well some people are just predisposed to having a low RHR. I had a RHR of close to 44 when I just starting out in the endurance game (i.e. not much training) almost 50 years ago. (Today it‘s still 48)