Other/Mixed Maximising heart health while putting on mass

[What_A_Melon]

Can it be done? Is getting bigger ever healthy for our hearts?

e.g. Going from 68kg lean to 75kgs lean is going to have added miles of arteries to the heart, can we negate heart stress by steady state cardio?

 

[Eyetic]

Well it depends, how tall are you??? 75 kgs seems pretty light to me as I'm 198cms, and there are also ways and ways of putting on mass..terms like dirty bulk, lean bulk are many others are oftently used.

I believe that if you follow a Strongfirst like program with a slight kcalories surplus diet you can gain "mass" without doing any harm to your heart health (and not only heart), considering that your current diet is well balanced. You will get bigger and healthy, and by bigger I'm not talking about mr. Olympia kind of big, you will end up looking athletic kind of big, overall fit guy as many in this forum does.

Your body adapts over time as your heart kind of respond in the same way to different stimulation, the main problem is people getting in the gym and by day 30 they are drinking "Ultra mega mass gainer++" reccomended by Mr.Big guy at the gym + half dozen egg a day + one gallon of milk a day (GOMAD) to upper their calorie intake, recipe for a disaster under my opinion.

 

[Wil_K10]

Hey What_A_Melon,
Yes its possible to do both. I don't think you need to worry about damaging the heart as the nature of an activity like swings OTM provides an intervallic stimulus similar to that which has been shown, repeatedly, to improve cardiovascular efficiency. Additionally, due to the weight of the kettlebell, and how you choose to employ it, you should be able to make strength and mass gains concurrently. As an aside, regarding vasculature, you're not going to be adding arteries, so no worries there! Instead you'll be changing the density of your capillaries which will alter the amount of O2 that diffuses to your working tissue. In this case, more is better.

Take care!

 

[Pete L]

Can it be done? Is getting bigger ever healthy for our hearts?

e.g. Going from 68kg lean to 75kgs lean is going to have added miles of arteries to the heart, can we negate heart stress by steady state cardio?

I'd say it's a strain. Stress is normal but when it overloads your capacity its an extra burden that might too much. It has to be contextual.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I don't think this is a concern, if it were, putting on mass would increase blood pressure, heart rate etc. Put on lean mass up to about 20% bodyfat and I can't imagine it doing anything but good.

 

[LukeV]

A doctor I had years ago, who seemed rather knowledgeable on sports-related issues, having been team doctor for the Pakistan cricket team, told me that while BMI was a crude instrument, that didn’t differentiate between muscle and fat, no-one should accept a BMI of 30+. He claimed this was because of overall health issues associated with higher body weights on the human frame. As I recall, BMI of 25 to 29 was regarded as overweight (unhealthy) in the typical human but he said that range could be occupied by a higher muscle individual without concern for health. But once BMI of 30 was reached, even by high muscle individuals, health concerns were real. I have no idea whether this has a basis in science but he told me quite a bit of stuff that ended up in the scientific mainstream although it wasn’t particularly at the time.

 

[Antti]

I have a hard time believing that it's possible to put an unhealthy amount of mass on while lean and by natural means.

 

[LukeV]

I have a hard time believing that it's possible to put an unhealthy amount of mass on while lean and by natural means.

If you look at it from an evolutionary stand point, becoming unhealthy because you're successful at eating doesn't make a lot of sense either lol

 

[pet']

Hello,

IMHO, it is possible. It took me 1,5 year, but I went from 57kg to roughly 64 without getting fat in the process. I am now 31yo and height is 1,83m. My blood pressure fluctuates between 11 and 12 and my RHR is 46.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel: exercise regularly without going to the red zone everyday (here and there as a test is plenty). Eating whole foods (no process foods, little to no alcohol for me). I am lucky enough to get 99% of organic food. I drink only coffee, tea and water.

Training wise, I stick with the basics, on a daily basis (push, pull, squat, hinge, core / carry and trail). I stay away from failure, and mostly focus on strength as it transfers well to muscle endurance. I spice it with power training here and there and remain in aerobic zone when on the trail

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[What_A_Melon]

Thanks guys.

TBH I'm my own worst enemy. When I am strong I want to be fast and able to run for an hour at a decent pace without dying and then when I traing running and cardio mostly (muay thai) I want to be able to deadlift 165kg for reps (I'm 172cm and hover around 72kg). Right now I'm in the phase of getting stronger but my RHR has gone from 45 bpm to 51 bpm.

I'm still doing two hours of LISS cardio and one fast 5km run a week and then three to four lifting sessions.

I know how to get strong and muscular and i know how to get fast and decent cardio but I've ZERO idea how to do both and I feel both suffer as a result.

I eat really well (whole plant food - don't drink alcohol at all or smoke, zero animal product, drink tea only).

Would switching to skipping 20 minutes a day be better than an hour jogging? Would I be best to do 200 burpees for my cardio after weights? How to balance?

 

[Anna C]

Right now I'm in the phase of getting stronger but my RHR has gone from 45 bpm to 51 bpm.

It sounds like you're taking this as a sign that your cardio health is going in the wrong direction. I wouldn't necessarily take it that way.

Would switching to skipping 20 minutes a day be better than an hour jogging? Would I be best to do 200 burpees for my cardio after weights? How to balance?

If the primary purpose of your cardio is heart health, I think what you're doing now is great "I'm still doing two hours of LISS cardio and one fast 5km run a week and then three to four lifting sessions." If your objective is some other type of conditioning, maybe burpees or skipping can help towards other objectives.

But I wonder, how are you defining if it's LISS cardio? Do you use your HR to guide your intensity?

I know how to get strong and muscular and i know how to get fast and decent cardio but I've ZERO idea how to do both and I feel both suffer as a result.

Instead of thinking of it as "both suffer as a result", just think of it as a choice you are consciously making in order to have both. This article offers some perspective: The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Each day the average adult heart contracts 100,000 x's and pumps 2,000 gallons of blood through a 60,000 mile network. I believe a healthy heart can handle a few extra pounds of muscle, especially since your heart is getting in better shape as a result of a well thought out training program. Keep the fat % low so the heart doesn't have to supply blood to the fatty tissue. Five extra beats per min. on your RHR could be from over training, poor sleep, stress, eating close to bedtime, a hot room ( summer ) mouth breathing, etc.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

If you look at it from an evolutionary stand point, becoming unhealthy because you're successful at eating doesn't make a lot of sense either lol

For clarity, all "evolution" cares about is that you successfully reproduce and raise the littles to the point where they can reproduce. Beyond that is on us. And being successful from the evolutionary standpoint may only partial overlap with living to what we now consider to be an old age and still be healthy.

 

[Sean Mulcahy]

This might be helpful. Talks about the need for and benefits of LSD locomotion, even for big strong guys.

The big man cardio primer - Read Performance Training

 

[North Coast Miller]

For clarity, all "evolution" cares about is that you successfully reproduce and raise the littles to the point where they can reproduce. Beyond that is on us. And being successful from the evolutionary standpoint may only partial overlap with living to what we now consider to be an old age and still be healthy.

High output exercise and retained muscle mass hold back aging for a long time. Evolution makes allowances for those who are still working hard for the tribe.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Gaining mass while improving cardio vascular health or performance is possible, at least up to a certain point.

Indeed, there is some sort of 'threshold' where one has to choose between 'conditioning' and strength or mass. This is where periodization comes in and may play a role to keep progressing in both areas (one improves while the other is just maintained and vice versa).

51 bpm remains relatively low. This is hard to beat specificity. If one runs and do not lifts, then one may have a relatively low HR, but may be in trouble lifting a furniture. This may be the other way around for a weightlifter.

Eventually, the body adapts to the specific demand, as mentioned above.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[What_A_Melon]

It sounds like you're taking this as a sign that your cardio health is going in the wrong direction. I wouldn't necessarily take it that way.


If the primary purpose of your cardio is heart health, I think what you're doing now is great "I'm still doing two hours of LISS cardio and one fast 5km run a week and then three to four lifting sessions." If your objective is some other type of conditioning, maybe burpees or skipping can help towards other objectives.

But I wonder, how are you defining if it's LISS cardio? Do you use your HR to guide your intensity?


Instead of thinking of it as "both suffer as a result", just think of it as a choice you are consciously making in order to have both. This article offers some perspective: The Cost of Adaptation | StrongFirst

Thanks so much for your response Anna.

I am using a wrist mounted HRM. I run for an hour on Saturdays for about 6mph my HR is around 140-155 during this time.

Sundays I do a 12% incline brisk walk and mr HR never gets above 145 for this but can be as low as 120.

Wednesday I do a 5km at 10mph heart rate tops out at 184ish.

I know wrist based is s***.

A few years back I did muay thai 5 days a week. When sitting down my heart rate could be 37 bpm. I felt unreal but looked like s*** lmao.

Now I'm heavier by a few KG and I do not red line my heart as much as 90 mintues four times a week hitting pads and sparring. But I am miles stronger, look better but feel like if my HR keeps creeping up I'll be where I was when I JUST lifted about decade ago in my early 20s when my RHR was very average.

I did try a while back doing very slow cardio but honestly it just didnt seem to work for me - Keeping my heart rate sub 140 meant everyweek dialing down the treadmill speed - so I felt my conditioning was just sliding futher and futher.

 

[offwidth]

Thanks so much for your response Anna.

I am using a wrist mounted HRM. I run for an hour on Saturdays for about 6mph my HR is around 140-155 during this time.

Sundays I do a 12% incline brisk walk and mr HR never gets above 145 for this but can be as low as 120.

Wednesday I do a 5km at 10mph heart rate tops out at 184ish.

I know wrist based is s***.

A few years back I did muay thai 5 days a week. When sitting down my heart rate could be 37 bpm. I felt unreal but looked like s*** lmao.

Now I'm heavier by a few KG and I do not red line my heart as much as 90 mintues four times a week hitting pads and sparring. But I am miles stronger, look better but feel like if my HR keeps creeping up I'll be where I was when I JUST lifted about decade ago in my early 20s when my RHR was very average.

I did try a while back doing very slow cardio but honestly it just didnt seem to work for me - Keeping my heart rate sub 140 meant everyweek dialing down the treadmill speed - so I felt my conditioning was just sliding futher and futher.

The fact that your HR was 140-155 (or any other number for that matter) means very little unless you know what your AeT is. Your AeT is a good baseline to measure your training performance against.

If you had a RHR of 37 then that is amazing; anything under 50 is pretty darn good even for highly conditioned endurance athletes. You mention that in your 20’s that your RHR was very average… average for an athlete or average for gen pop? 72 is considered ‘average’ for the general population.

Doing ‘very slow cardio’ as you put it is something that takes a long time to see the benefit from. Some people get frustrated and don’t think they are getting any training effect and then they give up the practice well before the benefits accrue. Patience is key here. We are talking months and years. But this doesn’t mean that all of your locomotive training should be LED. Just a large percentage of it. One still needs to do higher intensity cardio work.

But then again… almost all of this comes back to what your training and lifestyle goals and aspirations are…

 

[Anna C]

But I am miles stronger, look better but feel like if my HR keeps creeping up I'll be where I was when I JUST lifted about decade ago in my early 20s when my RHR was very average.

Sounds to me like you're on the right track. I would think that just being slightly larger and more muscle mass that needs blood to circulate would tend to drive a slightly higher RHR. That's not anything scientific, but just from my observation of endurance athletes I've known -- the aerobic beasts with the lowest RHR tend to be about as skinny as a piece of paper, thought they have plenty of slow twitch fiber to propel them for days.

But then again… almost all of this comes back to what your training and lifestyle goals and aspirations are…

+1 to @offwidth's response above. I'd recommend the Uphill Athlete books, or Joel Jamieson's Ultimate MMA Conditioning, for a deep dive on the subject. Aerobic base is one thing -- "conditioning" can be another, depending on specifically what type you need. But generally speaking, aerobic base will serve as a great platform to quickly build other types of conditioning on top of, with specific types of targeted training like power intervals and sprints.

 

[Pete L]

Not sure whether there is any correlation to this topic but larger mammals tend to have slower heart rates, e.g. an elephant vs. a mouse.