Kettlebell Complexes or keep it simple

[FinlayB]

Hello

I have seen may people on youtibe doing complexes, some really long ones where if untried i am sure inwoukd get lost at whoch movement to so next.

With these complexes it seems that the idea is to use a relatively light weight and keep the movement going for a long time

This is opposite to the other style of training, just doing one exercise in sets, ladders or other woth the aim of getting strong.

I much prefer the second type of train with the longest complex I use is Dan John's armour building.

What do people here think of complexes?
Are they important?
Should they be kept to a number of.movements?
Do you like them?
And anything else that you care to comment

 

[Don Fairbanks]

I like the variety and the spread the load factor.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Personally I don't like complexes that have more than 2-3 movements and I do them in relatively short intense bursts, rest as long as you need between.

My favorite is to pair a grind with an explosive lift for about 90 seconds of work total. I keep the entire session under 30 minutes. 20-25 of that is plenty.

 

[MikeL]

Longest complex I do is “clean” and “press”. Call me traditional…

 

[Boris Bachmann]

What do people here think of complexes?
Are they important?
Should they be kept to a number of.movements?
Do you like them?
And anything else that you care to comment

I believe that complexes are essentially the same thing as 'circuit training' or (depending on exercise selection) 'supersets' or 'giant sets'. One could get nitpicky about the subtle differences, but yeah...

I like interval training/complexes/giant sets as a way to get a lot of work in in a short amount of time, and a way to do some non-traditional cardio. If you're like me, you're just not going to jog or cycle. Programmed intelligently, a long circuit (30+ minutes in duration) will get you breathing heavy and depending on exercise selection/intensity/rest intervals you can tailor HR to whatever you think you need.

I talk a lot about circuit training here - it might be worth a look if you're interested:

 

[Period]

Whether or not Istvan Javorek was the inventor of "modern" complex training (I mean, some of the old York books include some fairly similar concepts, for example), he definitely was one of the major influences. He used them initially as a conditioning tool for Olympic lifters as far as I understand, and then branched out from there (see https://www.istvanjavorek.com/page2.html).
Now, I personally really like all kinds of circuit trainings and complexes. I'd say they are an extremely flexible concept, since you can use as many (or few) exercises as you like, turn them into anaerobic conditioning, make them more strength-dominant or strength-endurance dominant or use them for hypertrophy. All variations have their merits, my personal preference being strength-endurance and anaerobic complexes. I think they're an especially good option if you don't want to (or can't) do your much else in the way of conditioning and enjoy both lifting and anaeorobic training. I think they allow someone who isn't as used to using a single exercise - like Girevoy-style C&J, Snatches, or the long cycle - to enjoy similar benefits.
I've been doing some form of wrestling-specific complex pretty much daily, most often with rubber bands and bodyweight, sometimes with weight plates or improvised weights. Recently, I have decided to give one of Geoff Neupert's complexes a try on the side, and of course, I had to go for The Long Haul right away I only have double 16s at home right now (double 24s and 32s at the gym), and to my pleasant surprise it seems I even have to ease into using those for the long haul. I have decided to take two weeks to get a hang of the exercises - I'm especially not used to double snatches - and to acclimate myself to longer complexes by cutting down the 30s work periods per exercise to 20 seconds the first week, and 25 seconds the second. So far, I really like it.

 

[John K]

With these complexes it seems that the idea is to use a relatively light weight and keep the movement going for a long time

I think this is one kind of complex or circuit, but it is definitely not the only one. I think it is common on youtube and instagram because light weight makes someone look more competent than they actually may be and it is popular among a certain large segment of the population to want light weight for long durations. I suspect the latter is why you see long circuits, and the former is why you see light weights. Of course, they could be using light weights to demonstrate impeccable form, and as it is a demo and not a workout that may or may not be relevant...

This is opposite to the other style of training, just doing one exercise in sets, ladders or other woth the aim of getting strong.

I don't think these are necessarily opposites, or at least "the aim of getting strong" does not necessitate them to be different. As an example, you could look at something like ROP (clean and press + pull-up ladders), or something like Brian Alsruhe's programming in giant sets. Both of those examples are to get strong, both use circuits (or circuit-like entities).

What do people here think of complexes?

They are a valid way of training, but like everything they are a tool that must be used appropriately.

Are they important?

They are a tool, so it depends on what your goal is and what you enjoy to do. I think the enjoyment part is more important as proper design can make the circuit work for almost any goal. If I love circuits, I will use them and enjoy them, sticking with my training and seeing great results; if I have a client who hates them and I program them for them, they are less likely to adhere to the program and less likely to get results. The "key" here is not the circuit, but in finding something that "works" for the individual.

Should they be kept to a number of movements?

I'm not sure, but you cannot sacrifice your attention in the moment to focus on the next thing (e.g. I'm not in the moment focusing on my cleans because I'm thinking - is it the getup that comes next, or is it a front squat?). I'm not sure where superset - giant set - circuit/complex/chain begins and ends. I really love pairs of movements - cleans and presses, presses and front squats, swings and cleans, front squats + farmers walks, cleans and front squats, etc. Having a couple pairs in a session hits a lot of big ticket items. A "fundamentals" circuit is fun too - e.g. swing, clean, press, squat, snatch, get-up.

Do you like them?

Yes. Because they are difficult. No... because they're difficult.

And anything else that you care to comment

There are so many different ways to use circuits. It isn't just light weight, it isn't just long durations.

I'm really enjoying "slow circuits" - for example, 10 swings, rest 30s, 5 presses, rest 30s, 5 squats, rest 30s, 5 cleans, rest 1-2 minutes, repeat. This is definitely not the same as doing all of them without rest. You aren't restricted to relatively light weight and the quality of the reps is A+. I mention it because I've started doing it and I enjoy it, and it is sort of "in-between" the two things you've mentioned.

I think they're a great tool when training a client or a group of clients.

@Boris Bachmann hit the "worst" part of circuits - sloppiness. If you start getting sloppy, increase rest time and/or decrease weight - or stop the training session. Don't get sloppy, and stay focused on what you're doing now.

Daggum I guess I felt talkative today...

 

[Anna C]

If you are on Instagram, you see a lot of them.... And that's why you see a lot of them, because they're Instagram friendly.

I like how they demand your attention and you have to think of what you're doing as well as what comes next. Very much like dance or anything choreographed. I used to do some kettlebell complexes but I'd say they made up less than 5% of my total kettlebell training time.

I also do some barbell complexes now, but my coach keeps them pretty simple, i.e. 2 cleans + 2 jerks. I see a lot of other weightlifters doing more... ah... complex complexes, like clean pull, hang power clean, hang cclean, jerk. Or snatch pull, snatch high pull, hang power snatch, hang snatch.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Done properly they are efficient and can definitely deliver multiple benefits..

I've had students use complexes as part of programming for obstacle course racing, fatloss, muscle building to name a few

 

[Archer]

When I was doing Kettlebell Muscle, I wrote the complexes on a chalk board in front of me so I wouldn't forget what exercise was next. I'll say this about complexes; when I finished 12 weeks of KM, I had hardly picked up a bell over 24kg for that program. I mostly used a pair of 20 kg and they still smoked me. However, when I was finished with the program I did some Q&D while on vacation and snatching the 24 seemed very light.

 

[Gypsyplumber]

I love complexes, but not when they get too cute. I’m not a huge fan of complexes that involve unilateral cleans, only because I find them to be sketchy for those with a history of back injuries like myself. I like meat and potato complexes that pack muscle like the ABC (my favorite) or the total tension complex, I love swing/goblet squat/push-up complexes…I love devils press complex for cardio…I also love the “climb the ladder” complex I call it where you do a swing, gunslinger clean, clean, high pull, and snatch.

 

[mvikred]

I like complexes but those that are designed intelligently (my personal go to are those by @Geoff Neupert ... but there are others who do a good job too). I personally dislike complexes that are ..... for lack of a better word, complex. There are complexes that require either I keep track of what rep is needed for what move in which set. I recently saw one by Pat Flynn. On paper its good and I was intrigued but I know for sure I would lose track of what I was doing while I am working out. So I need something that is simple, that I can keep track of in my head and just get on with the training. Also I like the conditioning element that comes with the complexes. Some of these complexes make using double 16s brutal !!! But there are times I like simplicity. One exercise (typically Clean and Press with double KBs) and just set the timer and go at it. So I typically cycle between the two styles, to keep things interesting and also bring a bit of balance in strength and conditioning.

 

[Steve Freides]

Longest complex I do is “clean” and “press”. Call me traditional…

Same here.

-S-

 

[Archer]

I love complexes, but not when they get too cute. I’m not a huge fan of complexes that involve unilateral cleans, only because I find them to be sketchy for those with a history of back injuries like myself. I like meat and potato complexes that pack muscle like the ABC (my favorite) or the total tension complex, I love swing/goblet squat/push-up complexes…I love devils press complex for cardio…I also love the “climb the ladder” complex I call it where you do a swing, gunslinger clean, clean, high pull, and snatch.

I totally agree. I've seen some that are downright silly, and look like they could lead to injury.

 

[Starlord]

I don't like complexes.

I beleive regardless what your goals are there are better ways of achieving them. I will also state that I consider complexes, circuits and giant sets as very different things.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

I think it really depends on how far along you are in training and what you are trying to do.

If you are new to some of the exercises, probably not best to stack them in a set where you will experience lots of fatigue and can hurt yourself or at best, not be able to focus on your technique.

If you want to build strength endurance, they work really well.

 

[ClayPainter]

I'm ignorant in regards to what the strict definition of a complex is...
Does a complex require the combination of pulls and presses or just multiple movements?
If the latter is the case, wouldn't a TGU be a complex?

 

[conor78]

For me nothing has been more effective for body composition. Geoff N The Wolf or KB muscle are the go to programs.

 

[Period]

I'd say the role of complexes in a program can be a somewhat, er, complex matter. For example, their role in Olympic lifting (here's a nice collection of ideas for that, by the way: Weightlifting Complexes: 10 Complexes Your Should ALREADY Be Doing – Fitbod) is basically SPP, and I'd argue that they are about as specific as it gets there. In combat sports, on the other hand, most complexes would probably count as GPP (granted, some are SPP, but usually not the ones involving kettlebells or barbells). As such, there are more options available in terms of how resistance is created, and since combat sports require a larger range of physical qualities compared to olympic lifting, the focal point of GPP can also be quite a bit broader. I'd argue that that is also the case for the casual user.

Generally, I'd say one thing complexes have going for them is that they are equipment-, time- and space-saving. You can do most complexes quite comfortably even on a small balcony, and most people will be completely wiped within half an hour if they push themselves.

Are there some potential drawbacks to the traditional form of doing complexes? Sure, one might argue that using a fixed weight for a number of different movements where you have different 1RM might not be ideal. However, this can to a certain extent be adressed by the order of exercises, using different rep ranges for each etc. Some forms of resistance also have certain advantages here - for example, if you use a long (ca. 5 m), thick rubber band - as they are commonly used for wrestling conditioning, including SPP -, you can just step closer to or away from the anchor point to adjust the resistance up or down, either in between sets or even during a set.

 

[Andi-in-BKK]

For me nothing has been more effective for body composition. Geoff N The Wolf or KB muscle are the go to programs.

I’m running Hybrid Burn Extreme currently with barbell and kettlebells. When you say body recomp are you noticing more fat loss or muscle gain or a mix of both?