Kettlebell Low-Volume Kettlebell Press Program?

[getterupper]

It seems like most of Pavel's kettlebell press programs are built around a cycle like this:

1. Increase volume gradually over time
2. Reset volume at a heavier weight
3. Repeat

I've no doubt that this works really well if the current weight is a sticking point and we need time to get over the hump.

But is there an alternative for beginners that allows for more frequent weight increases instead? I'm thinking of something more similar to Starting Strength, which uses a lower total volume and a rapid weight progression to take advantage of beginner gains. For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step. It feels more efficient to progress quickly to a solid base and then start to slow things down with the longer cycles.

I think some people will suggest simply progressing more quickly through the first few RoP cycles, but I suspect that my body would need the full 13 weeks to work up to 75 presses in a session - that's a lot! A lower volume approach might be safer and more reliable for beginners. Just wondering if there is any such program out there for kettlebells or if it's a barbell-exclusive approach.

 

[jtsang]

Giant 3.0 by @Geoff Neupert perhaps?

 

[watchnerd]

It seems like most of Pavel's kettlebell press programs are built around a cycle like this:

1. Increase volume gradually over time
2. Reset volume at a heavier weight
3. Repeat

I've no doubt that this works really well if the current weight is a sticking point and we need time to get over the hump.

But is there an alternative for beginners that allows for more frequent weight increases instead? I'm thinking of something more similar to Starting Strength, which uses a lower total volume and a rapid weight progression to take advantage of beginner gains. For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step. It feels more efficient to progress quickly to a solid base and then start to slow things down with the longer cycles.

I think some people will suggest simply progressing more quickly through the first few RoP cycles, but I suspect that my body would need the full 13 weeks to work up to 75 presses in a session - that's a lot! A lower volume approach might be safer and more reliable for beginners. Just wondering if there is any such program out there for kettlebells or if it's a barbell-exclusive approach.

The length of time and large volume is driven by the large weight jumps common in KBs.

Barbell programs like Starting Strength don't have this problem.

If you want to jump up more quickly, all you need to do is buy bells in smaller increments.

i.e. 2 kg jumps instead of 4 kg or 8 kg

 

[Adachi]

My estimation of a good training principal to help drive higher weights sooner is to use the rule of 10. 10 reps per session. And incorporate heavier bells as much as you are able. That's probably one good way to drive that pure strength development.

Using the rule of 10 as a baseline and 5x5 as a ceiling I had some luck with ad lib strength sessions that were in the following parameters. And, part of the reason I had a good experience probably had to do with alternating weight selection and rep range.

Day A:
strict press 5/2 to 5/5 at weight "P"
Day B:
push press 3/1 to 10/1 at weight "P+"

Week 1: A - B - A
Week 2: B - A - B
Repeat...

Try that for 6 - 12 weeks.

Aim to minimize the kipping in your push presses to load up that shoulder. And when I get it just right , it really loads up the shoulder more intensely than strict pressing my usual bell size.

 

[Hrungnir]

I have thought about this as well, but shelved it because I have yet to exhaust the more common kettlebell methodologies of increased density in training and larger jumps. Those methodologies are popular because most people don’t own the number of bells required to do small incremental jumps like linear progression asks for. With the increased popularity of adjustable comp bells, maybe we will see programs like the popular LPs (Greyskull, GZCLP, etc) where there are frequent small jumps as well as intermediate programs that work off percentage of training max like 5/3/1.

 

[getterupper]

The length of time and large volume is driven by the large weight jumps common in KBs.

Barbell programs like Starting Strength don't have this problem.

If you want to jump up more quickly, all you need to do is buy bells in smaller increments.

i.e. 2 kg jumps instead of 4 kg or 8 kg

Thanks. Out of curiosity, if you had access to 2 kg increments, any idea how you would program presses? I'm trying to understand the full range of options available and the trade-off space that exists among them.

 

[watchnerd]

Thanks. Out of curiosity, if you had access to 2 kg increments, any idea how you would program presses? I'm trying to understand the full range of options available and the trade-off space that exists among them.

2 kg increments are small enough to do standard %-based progression based off your 1RM.

 

[John K]

It seems like most of Pavel's kettlebell press programs are built around a cycle like this:

1. Increase volume gradually over time
2. Reset volume at a heavier weight
3. Repeat

I've no doubt that this works really well if the current weight is a sticking point and we need time to get over the hump.

But is there an alternative for beginners that allows for more frequent weight increases instead? I'm thinking of something more similar to Starting Strength, which uses a lower total volume and a rapid weight progression to take advantage of beginner gains. For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step. It feels more efficient to progress quickly to a solid base and then start to slow things down with the longer cycles.

I think some people will suggest simply progressing more quickly through the first few RoP cycles, but I suspect that my body would need the full 13 weeks to work up to 75 presses in a session - that's a lot! A lower volume approach might be safer and more reliable for beginners. Just wondering if there is any such program out there for kettlebells or if it's a barbell-exclusive approach.

The short answer is no, and the long answer is nooooooooooo.

If you cannot press the 32kg, and can only get 2-3 reps with the 28kg, then you HAVE to use volume at the 28kg (and likely the 24kg) in order to develop the strength at 32kg. If that gets you to a single rep, then you likely need even MORE volume at the 28kg (and possibly the 24kg) in order to get strong enough that the 32kg can be your working weight. There's no way around this. A lot of barbell programs recognize this and use volume as well.

If you can't handle the volume, and you take the time to handle the volume, you are getting stronger... The goal is getting stronger, which you're doing. Using more weight is only one way of assessing being stronger.

 

[watchnerd]

If you cannot press the 32kg, and can only get 2-3 reps with the 28kg, then you HAVE to use volume at the 28kg (and likely the 24kg) in order to develop the strength at 32kg. If that gets you to a single rep, then you likely need even MORE volume at the 28kg (and possibly the 24kg) in order to get strong enough that the 32kg can be your working weight. There's no way around this. A lot of barbell programs recognize this and use volume as well.

This.

My barbell pressing programs, where I can microload down to 0.5 kg if I want to, still wave the volume and intensity.

Week 1 will typically be 65% of 1 RM. And when I finish the cycle, I'll reset and do it again, but with a new, higher 65%.

 

[Rumsmike]

For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step.

Not directly related to your question but this article may be of interest to you as a very tall person: A Long Way to Press: Work Capacity, Levers, and Tall People | StrongFirst

 

[Steve Freides]

For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step.

@getterupper, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

I've mentioned in other threads that I've had success running the ROP more quickly by treating each Heavy Day as an opportunity to get every rep I could without the possibility of failure. That means, e.g., if you did 2 ladders to 5 and 3 ladders to 4 last week, but you feel like you can get 5 ladders to 5 today, cutting two additional weeks out of your timetable, you should do just that.

Note also that the program tells you how to test your rep maximum, your RM, and you can start the program with a weight that's as heavy as a 5RM. If you're starting with a 5RM and ending with 5 ladders to 5 in three months time, you're progressing mighty quickly, IMO. If you choose a lighter weight to start with, then skipping a week or three along the way is possible. I've done a 20 kg ROP for myself in 8 weeks because that was about a 10RM for me at the start.

[SERMON]
Last point but perhaps the most important: Don't concern yourself with what's respectable, just concern yourself with getting stronger. I happen to be walking that walk myself these days as I learn Olympic lifting for the first time. I went out and bought a 15 lb barbell because even my 15 kg women's barbell was too heavy for what I was trying to do, and the 20 kg barbell I'll eventually compete on is completely out of the question. All this for overhead squats, something I've actually done in the past with at least a reasonable weight of 1/2 bodyweight, but that's not where I'm at now and you have to start where you are if you don't want to get burned out, injured, or both.
[/SERMON]

-S-

 

[Hrungnir]

2 kg increments are small enough to do standard %-based progression based off your 1RM.

Wouldn’t they be more equivalent to 4kg jumps when comparing to linear progression with a barbell as they are unilateral increases?

 

[watchnerd]

Wouldn’t they be more equivalent to 4kg jumps when comparing to linear progression with a barbell as they are unilateral increases?

RM calculations don’t know what tool you’re using

 

[Hrungnir]

RM calculations don’t know what tool you’re using

Yeah but OP is talking about linear progression ala Starting Strength where there is a fixed weight increase every workout. Specifically 5# for overhead press with SS.

 

[Gypsyplumber]

It seems like most of Pavel's kettlebell press programs are built around a cycle like this:

1. Increase volume gradually over time
2. Reset volume at a heavier weight
3. Repeat

I've no doubt that this works really well if the current weight is a sticking point and we need time to get over the hump.

But is there an alternative for beginners that allows for more frequent weight increases instead? I'm thinking of something more similar to Starting Strength, which uses a lower total volume and a rapid weight progression to take advantage of beginner gains. For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step. It feels more efficient to progress quickly to a solid base and then start to slow things down with the longer cycles.

I think some people will suggest simply progressing more quickly through the first few RoP cycles, but I suspect that my body would need the full 13 weeks to work up to 75 presses in a session - that's a lot! A lower volume approach might be safer and more reliable for beginners. Just wondering if there is any such program out there for kettlebells or if it's a barbell-exclusive approach.

You can start by just doing small ladders a few times a week. The Giant series is awesome but it also involves the clean.

 

[watchnerd]

Yeah but OP is talking about linear progression ala Starting Strength where there is a fixed weight increase every workout. Specifically 5# for overhead press with SS.

Yes, but I'm not suggesting following Starting Strength loading.

Starting Strength isn't %-based, it's a fixed increase per session.

 

[getterupper]

The short answer is no, and the long answer is nooooooooooo.

If you cannot press the 32kg, and can only get 2-3 reps with the 28kg, then you HAVE to use volume at the 28kg (and likely the 24kg) in order to develop the strength at 32kg. If that gets you to a single rep, then you likely need even MORE volume at the 28kg (and possibly the 24kg) in order to get strong enough that the 32kg can be your working weight. There's no way around this. A lot of barbell programs recognize this and use volume as well.

If you can't handle the volume, and you take the time to handle the volume, you are getting stronger... The goal is getting stronger, which you're doing. Using more weight is only one way of assessing being stronger.

Thanks, but I'm asking from the perspective of a beginner. If 28kg were my working weight, I wouldn't mind spending 13 weeks with it to get to 32kg. But my current working weight for RoP based on RM would be 16kg, and my half-bodyweight press would be 48kg. I have a loooong way to go compared to smaller people who would target 32-36kg. I'm 6'6" and broad (would easily weigh 200 pounds at absolute leanest); I think there's an opportunity to quickly establish 24-28kg as working weight prior to diving into 13-week cycles. If I just did RoP starting at 16kg, it would take 6-9 months to reach 24-28kg.

 

[Hrungnir]

I haven’t run ROP, just read the program but there is a test every four weeks. Dependent on that test you either continue or jump bells. So you don’t have to run the entire 13 weeks if you hit the benchmark.

Similarly you could run Giant 3.0, test for your new 5 rep max and then run it again. Once you stall out on increasing your 5RM, test your 10RM and repeat with 1.0.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Iron cardio
Kettlebell strong ph1
Giant 3.0

 

[lais817]

It seems like most of Pavel's kettlebell press programs are built around a cycle like this:

1. Increase volume gradually over time
2. Reset volume at a heavier weight
3. Repeat

I've no doubt that this works really well if the current weight is a sticking point and we need time to get over the hump.

But is there an alternative for beginners that allows for more frequent weight increases instead? I'm thinking of something more similar to Starting Strength, which uses a lower total volume and a rapid weight progression to take advantage of beginner gains. For someone like me, who is 6'6" (198 cm) and 225 pounds (102 kg), it would take a maddeningly long time to achieve a reasonable press if I have to start from nothing and spend 13 weeks at each step. It feels more efficient to progress quickly to a solid base and then start to slow things down with the longer cycles.

I think some people will suggest simply progressing more quickly through the first few RoP cycles, but I suspect that my body would need the full 13 weeks to work up to 75 presses in a session - that's a lot! A lower volume approach might be safer and more reliable for beginners. Just wondering if there is any such program out there for kettlebells or if it's a barbell-exclusive approach.

My beginners 2c, from my own experience.

As "embarrassing" as it is to be starting with a 16kg, that is where your strength and skill currently is. Swallowing your ego is the hardest part of smart training. It's bloody hard to be comfortable with such a "beginner's weight" when others on this forum are pressing 2x40kg and above for reps.

No one cares what you can press compared to others, really.

Meet your body where it is and go from there. You will have less injuries, training will be more enjoyable and it will allow you to work on the skill of strength/technique. Doing lots of reps helps all the supporting musculature and soft tissue keep up with the pressing muscles as well, as far as I understand.