Old Forum 1-rep max ready

[Matt]

Hi Aris,

You’re right – and correct in thinking I wasn’t taking it to its extreme conclusion. There would be structure as you’ve shown.

I was thinking – well maybe I can ask you (or anyone here) – well maybe not you as you might be doing something more advanced than the average – so assuming someone was doing a standard “western” progression as you’ve outlined (decreasing volume increasing %rep max, 4 week cycle) – in standard gym at a similar time daily with an average – above average level of experience : could I ask them at any point in their 4 week cycle to hit a rep max (max-max).

So week two – surprise, you’ve got to hit a max-max today on your second/third DL.

I wouldn’t expect them to back up the next day with the same (as per Steve’s point), but what about 2 weeks later, then 7 weeks later on a different day to their usual DL day etc etc.

I can’t imagine that I could have done that when I was training like that. For DL anyway.

Or give them a different weight belt, different plates – or use a kb, slightly narrower handgrips and test their max weighted pullup?

I don’t know if that / what would be possible with a Sheyko styled program (Sheiko? or Sheyko) – yet perhaps the strength gains from a more seemingly random variation (yet still structured) are more lasting (and therefore, in my simplistic terminology, less relative, less program/environment dependent). ??

 

[Journeyman]

Hmm. You're asking a few different questions here, all very interesting--

Well, personally, I am actually using a 'western' cycle for DL right now. It's planned off of what I've done previously, not %s of 1RM, and the blocks are 3 weeks, not 4, but it's all the same idea. As you get more advanced that basic stuff can definitely still work--it's a matter of smarter planning and not being so aggressive with your expected progress. It isn't like you automatically have to switch to eastern bloc or Chinese weightlifting-derivative programs once you reach a certain level of strength... a lot of this is personal preference and what will work in terms of time, etc. Would I make more progress if I could train 3 hours a day and do nothing but train and recover--yes, and would my training look different in that case--heck yes! It would look different if I were using large doses of 'restoratives', too, for that matter.

...Anyway. The scenario you suggest would really heavily depend on the individual and what the program looked like, exactly. Some western European programs have a VERY long base phase in which a lot of volume is built up with fairly low percentages of 1RM; and doubtless if you asked one of those lifters to randomly max right at the end of his first accumulation phase he probably wouldn't make a very good showing. And some of those american programs, if you're using sets of 10 for your first block and nothing else, same deal.

But--that really isn't the point of the program is it? Remember that almost all PL programs, the Russian ones included, are designed to prepare for a competition and perform to the utmost at that specific date. Ask someone to max DL at the end of the third week of Sheiko #30, after doing 386 lifts and just before his taper week--he's pushing over the edge at that point and relying on tapering to bring him to a new 100%+ weight. That's why it's a plan. There isn't room for random acts of variety in there; he isn't supposed to be able to perform his best except on competition day.

As for maintaining 1RM strength on a western cycle and not letting that ability drop too much as you're building up volume at the start; throwing in an over-warmup or fatigue single would be a good idea. I like doing one or the other of those. Works well for density training too. As far as I can tell the Russian programs are a bit less forgiving but most of those incorporate a few heavier singles/doubles in there at some point anyway (though it really depends on what you're talking about. Sheiko does, Smolov and RSR don't, and there are a whole slew of others--Ryabinnikov, Rogozhnikov, Faleev--that all look totally different and some are actually very 'western' in layout... hard to generalize there).

Different size weights/bells: well, the stronger you are period, the better you'll be at lifting a slightly 'weird' weight. Pulling DL with a rigid bar and thin plates is a good idea, of course, unless you're preparing for a meet and know you'll be lifting on a whippy bar. But I don't see a reason to do something like always using fat handles, or uncomfortable loading arrangements for weighted pullups etc. just so that you'll 'be ready' for an odd arrangement.

Strength gains are strength gains. The 1RM you'll get from any well designed PL program is not going to stick around for very long no matter what the program is. Everything else... really does depend.

I will say this, though. If you want to be able to not only get stronger, but also express strength better on a regular basis--lift heavy, lift simple, use high tension, stay away from fatigue, incorporate variable practice. Hey, sounds kinda like Easy Strength, eh? ; )

 

[Matt]

Hi Aris,

Thanks – seriously, you are legendary in your knowledge. I appreciate it.

You make a really good point (one of many) that I didn’t really factor in to my thinking – the majority of those (PL) programs are designed to enable a max-max on a competition date – sort of the opposite of my criteria.

I know I regularly use a fatigue single for weighted chins and that seems to work well for me. I sort of just made it up I guess !?, so I’m glad it is a legit. technique.

I think you put it better/nicely at the end – to get stronger and be able to express strength better on a regular basis. That’s 2015 for me. Cheers.

 

[Marlon Leon]

Matt, I think I've got the answer. Crossfit!

No, just kidding. Why not go with JimWendler's 5/3/1? You constantly albeit slowly push up your strength without neglecting conditioning and get variety with accessory exercises. It has autoregulation build in and you don't peak for a competition but coax up your max.

 

[Steve Freides]

Matt,  if you're looking for strength at any time, GTG is your answer - train at any and every time, moderately heavy, high total volume spread out over the course of the day, every day.

If there's a specific question here, I confess to not finding it.  What exactly are you trying to accomplish?  Is this for yourself or more a theoretical, "what if" question.

-S-

 

[Journeyman]

NP, Matt.

Re: fatigue singles--if it works, do it. Original ideas are pretty rare, I've 'come up with' stuff so many times only to find out later that it's more or less common. So I wouldn't worry about something being 'legit' if it works for me.

Something else I just remembered that you could perhaps give a shot--check out what Pavel has written about 'tactical periodization'. Combined with an ES or GTG approach, that could be something  for you to experiment with.

 

[Matt]

Aris .... just what I was looking for - tactical periodization.  Brilliant. 

As Pavel says - the volume and intensity are random and are not dependent on each other.

I'll use that for sure throughout the year with my ES-ish normal approach.  Thanks.

 

[Matt]

Hi Leon,

When I first glanced at this thread earlier this morning I saw Crossfit and thought - uh oh.  But I'm glad you're joking. 

You actually make a good point too with 5,3,1 - the autoregulation (or crazy switch) gives it a bit of an edge - but that has to be done properly (and actually done if possible).  That wasn't emphasised to me when I had a 6month stint with it a years ago.

 

[Matt]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the GTG suggestion.  Again a good suggestion.

I'd probably make it a bit more confusing if I tried to re-explain in a hurry, so I might have to get back to you later on that one.  If not, Aris' detailed post above and mine preceeding it probably is the best summary.  It is both theoretical and personal, and mostly upon reflection of my past 5 years of training.  Yet GTG is definitely a principle I'll be using so thanks.