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Kettlebell 10,000 Kettlebell Swing Criticism

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Michael Scott

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I saw the 10,000 swing challenge in a thread earlier this month, and was researching it for consideration after I finish the How to Get Better At Everything By Training Multiple Get-Ups program. I came across this criticism of the program, and thought I would see what the practitioners here thought of this article.

Caution: 10,000 swing challenge - Kettlebell Gym
 
I've got work to do but I can't resist criticizing this guy. Here we go:

Now I get that there is “mental toughness” needed for this challenge which you might think mitigates the mindlessness that I speak of, but kettlebell training and strong person training as a whole is already dripping with mental toughness as it is, it reeks of the stuff. If mental toughness won an award, in it’s acceptance speech it would say “I owe it all to my kettlebells, barbells and gymnast rings”.

Whatever. I would say it's a different mental toughness. Can you stick to a program that may get boring?

I noticed too, that the picture used in the particular post that I am reading is of a massively built and chiseled man doing what appear to be kettlebell swings with such extreme forward shoulders that are almost touching in the front, with a very light weight for his size (24kg) ‘nuff said.

There's also no caption underneath the picture that says "This is the proper way to do a swing." I generally ignore the pictures that T-Nation adds to the articles because 99% of the time the are irrelevant and put there for hype. Also, if you're basing your swing technique on a picture, you ain't ready for this challenge. Go get proper training on the swing. This is just criticizing something for the sake of criticism.

With that said, this challenge defeats the purpose of the kettlebell, it promotes a mindset about kettlebell and all functional weight lifting that is detrimental as a whole to the majority of people that will take part. (Assumption based on there being no guidelines as to who the challenge was intended for).

It's a CHALLENGE! This is not meant to be done as a year long program.

Training like this is much more likely to cause injury because you won’t be able to stay focussed on your form, and you are very likely to overtrain the muscles and recovery systems that will keep you in the gym next month! (You do want to be able to keep training after the challenge, don’t you)?

My pet peeve: using the word "overtrain" incorrectly. There is a detailed discussion on the other thread about the real sports science definition of overtraining.

Once again: It's a CHALLENGE! This is not meant to be done as a year long program. Will it stress your recovery systems? Most likely yes. This is not a beginner's program. You need to be proficient in the swing (the article makes that very clear) and you need to have built up some level of work capacity through other programs, preferably some that have included a fair amount of swings.

The challenge page mentioned that people were decreasing fat and building muscle, to which I can only say, well yeah, they did ten thousand FREAKING swings, they better have gotten something out of it! Nothing that they wouldn’t have gotten, however from using even the smallest dose of the ONE thing that I think we can ALL agree is the REAL answer to achieving ALL of your health goals: BALANCE.

Hmmm, there seems to be a pattern here: It's a CHALLENGE! This is not meant to be done as a year long program. Yes, in an ideal world we should all have wonderfully balanced programs, eat the right amount of calories to support our training but not gain fat, and be patient and consistent with our training so that we gain strength gradually. Who the h*ll lives in an ideal world? Once in a while we may need a "kick in the pants" program. We ate to much over the holidays or on vacation or whatever. Some of our lifts have stalled out and we want to boost them.

I also wonder how on earth you are supposed to do this while adding in chin ups as one of the daily strength moves, unless of course your grip strength and endurance is that of a hydraulic earth mover.

Oh, did I mention: It's a CHALLENGE! This is not meant to be done as a year long program. Did I also mention: This is not a beginner's program. You need to be proficient in the swing (the article makes that very clear) and you need to have built up some level of work capacity through other programs, preferably some that have included a fair amount of swings. Yes, this will tax the grip - says so right in the article. Also says that grip strength improved tremendously. Hmmm.

The thing that surprised me the most about this that I have never before heard bad advice from the author, Mr Dan John and my respect and admiration for him as a coach and human being made me think twice before writing this critique.

Thank goodness for copy and paste: It's a CHALLENGE! This is not meant to be done as a year long program. And also: This is not a beginner's program. You need to be proficient in the swing (the article makes that very clear) and you need to have built up some level of work capacity through other programs, preferably some that have included a fair amount of swings. Finally, Dan says that he and some of his friends tried this program before he wrote it. This is not theory. Dan John is a strong guy and has been consistently training for years. He is also in his 50s, so it is possible for even an older person to do this without a problem, provided that they have good swing technique and a training background.
 
I think there are some valid arguments in that article. Mainly, what can high volume swings teach your body that heavy low volume swings cannot? After doing the challenge, my grip endurance got better. Other than that, I could have done a strength movement coupled with a sprint on a rower/elliptical/burpee/squat jump/etc. to the same body composition effect I think. That said, I don't think the challenge is as dangerous as it is portrayed and worst case adds one more fitness experience to the memory bank.
 
The critique is pretty silly. It isn't really a substantive critique as much as just repeated assertions that it's bad. To the extent that it does offer criticisms, they are based on misunderstandings.

Finally, Dan says that he and some of his friends tried this program before he wrote it. This is not theory.

Dan has indeed done this multiple times, and worked with many others who have, and he's made adjustments to the parameters based on those experiences.

The author of the article obviously did not follow Dan's one rule:

I have ONE rule...
 
I think there are some valid arguments in that article. Mainly, what can high volume swings teach your body that heavy low volume swings cannot?
In my experience and observation doing a concentrated high volume of swings is very instructive. That also seems to be a key assumption of the SFG cert.

After doing the challenge, my grip endurance got better.

I don't think the challenge is as dangerous as it is portrayed and worst case adds one more fitness experience to the memory bank.
At least you followed Dan's one rule -- you actually did the program! So your observations are a lot more valid than those of the author of the article.

Other than that, I could have done a strength movement coupled with a sprint on a rower/elliptical/burpee/squat jump/etc. to the same body composition effect I think.
If that was your goal. Lots of ways to skin a cat. To me, the goal of the 10,000 swing challenge is to do 10,000 swings along with the strength movements in between sets.
 
In my experience and observation doing a concentrated high volume of swings is very instructive. That also seems to be a key assumption of the SFG cert.
@Steve Freides has commented similarly that he gets a lot out of getting in the groove of his swings. It's not quite the same for me; for me, I support fatigue being a good teacher. The most instructive for me has been clean & jerks. Fatigued shoulders teach hip drive well for me.
If that was your goal. Lots of ways to skin a cat. To me, the goal of the 10,000 swing challenge is to do 10,000 swings along with the strength movements in between sets.
Just stating that way as that is one of the main points Dan makes about the program.
"1. Challenge yourself with four weeks of intensive kettlebell swinging to test your grit and improve body composition."
My actual goal was more similar to yours. Specifically, I didn't have a heavier bell to use so I wanted to jack up my volume with the one I had.
Oh, did I mention: It's a CHALLENGE! This is not meant to be done as a year long program.
I want to caveat this with the potential for the program to be done more than once. I think there is value in progressing the bell size used in this challenge. I agree I wouldn't do that back to back though. However, using a new working bell each year for example could offer some value. Maybe even use this as a milestone to move to a new bell in some cases, thoughts?
 
I want to caveat this with the potential for the program to be done more than once. I think there is value in progressing the bell size used in this challenge. I agree I wouldn't do that back to back though. However, using a new working bell each year for example could offer some value. Maybe even use this as a milestone to move to a new bell in some cases, thoughts?

It can absolutely be done more than once. Just not back to back to back. I think Dan wrote somewhere that he would recommend doing this twice a year tops. Can't remember where he wrote that.
 
Hello,

In my humble opinion, the 10k challenge is a pretty good "program".

This high volume obliges to perform each move with perfect technique. Basically, as long as we do not get fatigue, we are improving technique. With such a program, it remains possible to stop before the 500 or take longer rest. Safety first ! This prevent from injury

Plus this builds a great work capacity.

Finally, this challenge can permit to break plateau. For instance, after it, I passed Simple with ease (I did a few weeks with 28 as a transition)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I tried it for about a week.

I hated it, it is the absolute opposite of the way I like to train.
 
This topic makes me want to do the challenge :)

It's tough. I've been fascinated with this program for some time but when I tried it I realized just how tough doing 500 swings is. My back became very fatigued after about 400 and since I had a bad back I didn't want to push it.

But unlike the author of the article, I believe in finding solutions rather than just criticizing. I asked Dan if there was a "pre-program" or "break in" program he had that would allow someone to do the challenge. He did not have one. So I've been trying to think of a break in program for this. I though doing a few days of 300-400 swings mixed in with strength work would help. I have not tried this yet but I may use that approach because I also want to try this out.
 
Other than that, I could have done a strength movement coupled with a sprint on a rower/elliptical/burpee/squat jump/etc. to the same body composition effect I think.

Probably, but would you know how much of each to do in order to get the same results? The beauty of the challenge is that it has proven results and you know exactly what to do to replicate those results. The problem with designing your own program is your just guess how much volume you'll need.
 
Finally, this challenge can permit to break plateau. For instance, after it, I passed Simple with ease (I did a few weeks with 28 as a transition)

What was your plateau ( swing strength ) before you did the challenge ?
 
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@Steve Freides has commented similarly that he gets a lot out of getting in the groove of his swings. It's not quite the same for me; for me, I support fatigue being a good teacher. The most instructive for me has been clean & jerks. Fatigued shoulders teach hip drive well for me.
I'm not sure comparing swings and C&J's is a useful comparison. The swing can be dialed up to varying degrees of effort in a way that's unlike most other exercises I can think of - that's one important difference, but another is that you can really hurt your back doing swings when you're tired to maintain good form.

About the jerk, OTOH, I agree completely that fatigue is a good teacher, and it's been recommended by many people to do a series of some sort where you press until you can no longer press, then you pushpress until you can't do that any longer, and then you jerk the weight. It's a great way to get a really tough session out of a single weight.

-S-
 
edit: my post in the other thread is not on this forums anymore. The thread got probably deleted.

I am not a professional. You may skip this post because it is a rant.

Programs like this and the Spartan 300 or whatever are good. The author's who are promoting them know their stuff. Little did they know....

And here is the problem: The 10k Swing challenge article that is written by Dan John is with a 24 kg KB.

But through the power of the internet we now have guys (males, adult males) probably overweight, want to get in shape "fast". I put "fast" in quotation marks because in 1 month you will be in shape. 4 weeks. From zero to hero.

We have other guys too. Powerlifters eager to learn kettlebells, bodybuilders eager to shed bodyfat before beach season.

I'm not saying everyone but many guys fall into either one of these 3 categories and usually have these things in common:

1. They use a 12 or 16kg kettlebell
2. They havent't been training with KB's for years. Few weeks or maybe a couple months. tops.
3. They never report back their results after the 10k challenge.

People fail. People give up. People injure themselves. People do not get the desired results. People ask how to incorporate this with a barbell program. etc. etc.

This is what happens when a good coach puts a challenge like this on the internet. That is why I don't like it. I commend anyone who wants to go out and get into better shape but please don't attempt a marathon when you are struggling to run even 1 mile without stopping.

If you don't believe me then go on Kettlebell • r/kettlebell search around a bit.

Last night, I read on this forum about a guy who was watching "Tabata Planks"...

Please, read my post about this challenge in the other thread.

However, please note that I am not a professional
 
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This is what happens when a good coach puts a challenge like this on the internet. That is why I don't like it.

I don't agree. People will do stupid things. That shouldn't prevent responsible people from having access to a challenging program and authors/coaches shouldn't be prevented from posting a challenge simply because someone who is not ready for it will try and anyway and end up injured.
 
I do not think it is for example, Dan Johns fault.
True. At the end of the day, common sense (whether it's common or not) has to reign supreme. It's one thing if my coach specifically tells me to do something and I get hurt, but it's another thing entirely if I hurt myself after reading some article somebody posted on the internet. It's not the worst thing to have a bad experience with a program, either. That's how we learn things. Things like "I wasn't ready for that program, and I'm probably not as hardcore as I thought I was."
 
Hello,

What was your plateau ( swing strength ) before you did the challenge ?
It was not really a plateau actually. I trained a lot with the 24 because it was - at the time - a weight I liked a lot. It was challenging enough, while permitting good recovery.

Jumping so fast from 24 to 32 was simply an incredible and positive surprise !

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
edit: my post in the other thread is not on this forums anymore. The thread got probably deleted.
If I edit or delete anything, I let the author know. If I haven't told you I've deleted a thread, then it's still here somewhere.
... but please don't attempt a marathon when you are struggling to run even 1 mile without stopping.
This is good advice.
This is what happens when a good coach puts a challenge like this on the internet. That is why I don't like it.
In the age of the Internet, any reader must have the good sense to know if what they're reading is appropriate for them; otherwise, they will suffer the consequences. It is a problem of the Internet - there is so much training information available, and many people don't know what to do with all that.

-S-
 
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