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Nutrition 100% Carnivore

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I'm 100% omnivore and my athletic endeavours have all improved too.
Being bald with few remaining grey hairs, at 53 I never knew meat could have an epigenetic effect on male patterned baldness and can change hair colour. That revelation could seriously affect the cosmetic hair product industry. No more jojoba and mushroom shampoo; pork chop and sirloin hair rub, perhaps. Should have eaten more steak.
Well what about those long haired bouffant hippy vegans? Exactly.
 
I finally decided to give the carnivore diet a trial about the middle of last month. I plan on doing it for a total of three months and assessing afterwards. After the first week or two it's been very easy to stick to, so I'm doing it pretty strictly with about three exceptions so far for social situations. I'm definitely not proselytizing it, but I have noticed a things that make me think some beneficial changes have taken place in regard to hormones and inflammation. Prior to the switch, I was eating high fat, moderate-to-high carb, and moderate protein with a minimum of processed food and a restricted feeding window of about 8 hours. Lots of plants, and some high quality meat. In order to keep to my budget, I dropped the meat quality to the point where I could spend $3/pound or less on beef.
I personally think humans are very much omnivores, and are capable of being very healthy on a variety of foods assuming processed foods are kept to a minimum. While I tend to be pretty critical of nutritional research, I think there's enough anthropological and archeological data to show that past humans have been very healthy on everything ranging from an all meat diet to a nearly all vegetable diet. I think a health with a vegan diet is also possible, though most people seem to require some supplementation and food combinations that weren't available to past societies.
My interest in carnivory lies in it's possible therapeutic benefits. My question is not whether or not it's healthy. That's been answered by hundreds of thousands of people of already, past and present, to my satisfaction. I simply wonder if there are aspects of it that make it preferable to other ways of eating for certain individuals. I'll be getting my blood work done again in March, at around the two month mark; if I remember I'll post it.
 
For anyone who's interested, I got my blood work done on the carnivore diet. I did a little write up for someone else already, so I'll go ahead an re-post it here. I'm including my opinions about the subjective experience as well. To be clear, I'll restate that I think humans can be healthy on a variety of diets, assuming processed foods are kept to a minimum. As long as you're not putting things that are literally toxic (sugar, corn syrup, etc) into your body, you'll probably be fine...

Context:
From September-December of last year I was eating a plant based high-fat, high-ish carb (mostly in the form of potatoes and rice), and low-ish protein (0.25-0.5 lbs of meat and eggs per day) diet. I was also continuing to utilize a 16-20 hour fasting period and two meals each day, which I've been doing in some form or another for about 3 years. I had my labs taken after about a month (in retrospect, I should have been tested later, but I'm learning). I basically wanted to see if I could be healthy on a high carb, whole food diet.

From mid-January to now I've been eating 2-3 pounds of beef each day, which is usually accompanied by 3-6 eggs, a couple slices of bacon, and a few ounces of pemmican. I had to switch to 3 meals a day and ditch the fasting, for reasons I will discuss later. My blood lipids were taken after two months of carnivory.

Objective:
  • Total Cholesterol-Increased from 201 to 320 (recommended range 97-200). This is due to increase in both HDL and LDL; more on that later
  • Triglycerides-Dropped from 96 to 78 (recommended range 30-200). I believe this is the lowest it's ever been, so that goes in the 'win' box. The Trig:HDL ratio is seen as both a good predictor of cardiovascular health as well as a decent proxy for insulin resistance. This can be improved by lowering Trig or raising HDL.
  • HDL-Increased from 50 to 67 (recommended range 32-72). This is the highest recorded HDL I've ever had. This is actually the first time my Trig:HDL has ever been close to 1:1, which is pretty neat.
  • LDL-Up from 132 to 237 (recommended range 0-129). Ooooh boy. So it's definitely a wee bit high, and thus what accounts for the big jump in Total Chol. This is interesting, because LDL by itself is a very poor predictor of cardiovascular disease, until it gets over 200. To add statistical validity, you have to look at a ratio with HDL and either LDL or Total Chol. When I look at my ratios, my high HDL seems to be keeping me (just barely) in a low-risk area. That being said, LDL over 200 is still not something I'm particularly comfortable with...
  • C-Reactive Protein-Unfortunately I don't have one to compare, but the one I got recently was <0.2 (recommended range 0.0-3.0). Basically, it was undetectable, and I would have had to used a more expensive test to figure out exactly where it was. CRP is a marker of systemic inflammation; less CRP=less inflammation. The limitation is that it doesn't tell you why you're inflamed (poor diet, exercise, stress, or a cold will all elevate CRP). The good news, though, is that cardiovascular disease is a two-part process that requires both inflammation and a poor lipid profile. If only one of these is present, nothing happens. This is the main reason I'm not worried that I'm about to stroke out with my LDL of 237.
  • A1C-Up from 5.0% to 5.4% (recommended range 4.2%-6.5%). Honestly, this is higher than I thought it would be after two months of basically no carbs. Obviously, the month prior of higher carb living probably threw it off a little, but that doesn't seem to explain all of it. A little research yielded two possibilities 1) The body auto regulates to a higher blood glucose level in physically active individuals (this is definitely not a ketogenic diet; there's lots of gluconeogenisis going on), and 2) decreased inflammation and oxidative stress means that the red blood cells live longer than the presumed 90 days, which gives an artificially elevated A1C. My guess is it's a mix of the previous month of high-carb and the longer RBC life span, because my blood glucose at the time of the draw was 92.
  • Blood Urea Nitrogen-Nothing previous to compare to, but at 29 it was noticeably outside of the norm (recommended range 7-22). This actually wasn't surprising, given that my liver is turning a lot of amino acids into glucose, which creates nitrogen as a byproduct. In a normal diet, a BUN of 29 would indicate impaired liver function, but in this context it's not concerning. I might get it done again in a month or two to make sure it's still hovering around 30, and not increasing.
  • Creatinine-Also nothing previous to compare, but it was o.94 (recommended range 0.6-1.4). Creatinine is actually highly variable based on muscle mass and diet. My creatine would be high for a little old vegan lady, low for an NFL lineman, but is about what one would expect for a 156 lb male who's eating a lot of meat. This is another one I'll probably check in a month or two, just to make sure it's staying consistent.

Subjective:
I'll pre-empt this by saying that I've ran around 153-154 pounds for about the past 5 years (I'm 5'10"). By the end of my higher-carb, plant-based experiment, I had dropped to 149 (about 4 lbs in 4 months). I assume this was lean mass loss since I don't carry much fat, and I clearly hadn't gotten any leaner. I wasn't very concerned since I hadn't noted a drop in physical performance. I had developed an irritating case of medial epicondylits (golfer's elbow) though, but I was mostly training through it.

By the end of week one, I didn't feel too different, except that my sleep seemed to be better, and my golfer's elbow (which I had been dealing with for 5 months) had really improved. Week two was weird. That was the heaviest period of adaptation, and I somehow felt fatigued but well rested. My sleep was great, and I was having lots of cool, vivid dreams (deeper REM sleep? I dunno), but I was definitely dialed back a gear.

After the second week, my body kicked it up. Energy went up, libido went up, mood improved, golfer's elbow was basically gone, carb cravings were 90% gone (this has never happened before), sleep was fantastic, and I was crushing my training. I haven't changed my workouts very much since September, but recovery was noticeably better. My schedule won't allow longer training sessions, so I gauge things by how many days I can train consecutively before I have to take a rest day. I went from 3-4 training days in a row to 6-7. Even when I do take a day off now, it's a different feeling. I used to take a day off when I felt beat up and old, now I take one when get out of bed and I'm a little tired (often life gives me rest days before I need them anyways).

The reason I had to stop my intermittent fasting protocol was due to appetite. I started gaining back lean mass pretty early on, and my appetite was cranked up to the point where I knew it would be unwise to continue with any kind of restriction. Now, 7-8 pounds of lean mass later, I think I'm leveling out in the 156-157 range.

Future Considerations:
It's hard to explain just how much better I feel eating this way. The few times I've "treated myself" I've regretted it the next day, as I've been promptly reminded what systemic inflammation feels like. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for vitamin deficiencies but nothing's showed up yet (and I don't believe it will, now that I've actually researched it). I do sometimes feel like eating a piece of fruit (which now tastes amazing), and I would like to get my LDL below 200. I'm going to start reintroducing some intermittent fasting again (which, in the long term, might help with the LDL), and maybe eating a little fruit after dinner.

Opinion:
This is odd. Carnivory has been simultaneously the most restrictive, and most satisfying way of eating I've ever tried. I do get the occasional desire for junk food (although, much less so now than ever before), but I just can't ever remember feeling this good, and really don't wan't to mess it up. I have a lot to learn. Why would every single subjective and objective marker of health move in one direction, and my LDL move in another? How well do I understand the clinical significance of these markers? Obviously not well enough.

I'm still not proselytizing carnivory, since there are many reasons for people to eat the way they do. There are many good ways to lose weight, stabilize your mood, and improve mental focus. That being said, based on my experience and that of many others, I would definitely recommend it to anyone struggling with any kind of inflammatory or autoimmune issue. The reduction of systemic inflammation in just the first two weeks was pretty amazing, and I do think it would be beneficial to the right people.
 
@Snowman , thanks for the very detailed write-up.

I've been thinking about giving the carnivore diet a go, starting right now after Easter.

There have been two things I've been worried about. Recovery and training while on the diet is one thing. I take training and development quite seriously. That you've had it better sounds great. The second thing is heart health. Now, I understand the cholesterol issue can be more complicated than many of us have been led to believe, but I can't deny I wouldn't feel more at ease if my cholesterol levels went down.

In any case, I'm going to give the diet a chance for a while and see how it works for me.
 
@Antti I would consider it worth a try. I had a pretty painless adjustment period, and it seems that most folks don't experience more than a week or two of diminished training capacity. The consensus seems to be that the improvement in recovery later is worth the short term hit to work capacity. I would strongly recommend blood work after 30-60 days, if for no other reason than tracking what's going on.
It's also worth noting that people with a past history of gout have sometimes noticed an increase in symptoms during the adjustment period, as their body learns what to do with the extra protein. There doesn't seem to be a long-term issue though; and there have been folks with poorly controlled gout who have largely resolved their symptoms by switching to a carnivore diet.

I would recommend the "About" page on meatheals.com as an information resource for anyone interested in giving it a try. It's all going to be biased, but so is all the rest of the nutritional information out there.
 
@Antti I would consider it worth a try. I had a pretty painless adjustment period, and it seems that most folks don't experience more than a week or two of diminished training capacity. The consensus seems to be that the improvement in recovery later is worth the short term hit to work capacity. I would strongly recommend blood work after 30-60 days, if for no other reason than tracking what's going on.
It's also worth noting that people with a past history of gout have sometimes noticed an increase in symptoms during the adjustment period, as their body learns what to do with the extra protein. There doesn't seem to be a long-term issue though; and there have been folks with poorly controlled gout who have largely resolved their symptoms by switching to a carnivore diet.

I would recommend the "About" page on meatheals.com as an information resource for anyone interested in giving it a try. It's all going to be biased, but so is all the rest of the nutritional information out there.

I just started, today is my day #1.

I don't think I'll have big problems with the diet. I eat a lot of meat typically and have little cravings for else.

I haven't had any cholesterol tests done in a long time so if I get blood tests done I won't know the difference. But it would be good to know what they look like in any case.

When it comes to my health I'm not specifically after fat loss with the diet but would very much welcome it if it happened. And if it happens, I think a more favourable body composition would be more beneficial for my health than slightly lower cholesterol levels. I'm overweight at the moment, been for ten years or so.

When it comes to the gout it is something that is relevant. I've done really well with it for a year or so now. I suspect it's my increased training intensity and frequency I have to thank for it, as nothing else has changed. Earlier on, I noticed the gout liked stable circumstances, and any quick changes in water weight etc caused a flare; like going on a keto diet or having a particularly wet weekend with plenty of treats. But I haven't had such problems for a good while now, and I hope it continues.

I'll check out the site, thanks.
 
this is definitely not a ketogenic diet; there's lots of gluconeogenisis going on

I may have to recant the first half of this statement. In light of learning new stuff, I am now less sure that high volume of gluconeogenisis will shut down ketosis. I haven't convinced myself to buy a ketone meter yet, so I can't really be sure exactly what my body is doing in that regard.
 
I may have to recant the first half of this statement. In light of learning new stuff, I am now less sure that high volume of gluconeogenisis will shut down ketosis. I haven't convinced myself to buy a ketone meter yet, so I can't really be sure exactly what my body is doing in that regard.

At a higher amount of protein intake, ketosis shuts down or is drastically reduced. This is likely why the Inuit were proven not to be ketogenic on their diet of virtually 100% meat. They also had larger livers than European counterparts speculated due to increased ability to convert aminos to glycogen. Not to mention the blubber of diving mammals is high in glycogen as is fresh uncooked meat.

IIRC Stephenson on 100% meat couldn't even digest the same Inuit diet and was in distress within days until he increased the % of fat (reducing % protein in the process).
 
@North Coast Miller This is essentially my understanding as well, but it seems to be possible for someone to dip in and out of ketosis between meals, even on a higher protein version of carnivore. I assumed, since my body seemed to up-regulate glucose production, that having normal glucose levels would preclude me from being in ketosis. This is the assumption I'm questioning. There does seem to be some thought that mild ketosis can still occur with a blood glucose of 90+, so long as insulin levels are very low (insulin is what shuts off ketosis; the blood sugar only affects ketosis via insulin). Again, due to my cheapness, I don't really know what my glucose or ketone levels are anyways. I had simply made a declarative statement that I now realize may have been incorrect, so wanted to un-declare myself ;)
 
Regarding the gluceogenesis, wouldn't it depend on the protein content and protein-fat -ratio of the meal whether one goes out of ketosis or not. Like if one eats 40g of protein a meal, five times a day, and has sufficient fat at each meal, would one leave ketosis?

Also, what's wrong with leaving ketosis every now and then?
 
Regarding the gluceogenesis, wouldn't it depend on the protein content and protein-fat -ratio of the meal whether one goes out of ketosis or not.

Ketogenic Dieting: Frequently Asked Questions

This article with podcast enclosed by Dr Jake Wilson will provide you with the Protein:Fat Ratio that is necessary to get into ketosis and remain there.

As per the article, it should be around...

1) 75% Fats (Some sources state 65% or higher)

2) 20% Protein (Some sources recommend 15% and up to 30%)

3) 50 gram or Less of Carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are given a definitive number.

"Gluconeogenesis Does Depend Protein:Fat Ratio

Yes, the determinate factor is dependent on the Protein:Fat Ratio.

However, it appears that it is more dependent on your Protein:Fat Ratio for the day, more so than per meal.

With that said, keeping the Protein:Fat Ratio close per meal is a good idea.

That based on my research and my personal experience of being on the Ketogenic Diet for almost two years; due to a health issue.

if one eats 40g of protein a meal, five times a day, and has sufficient fat at each meal, would one leave ketosis?

"Refractory Period"

Research (Dr Layne Norton, PhD Nutrition) has demonstrated that consuming meals every 4 - 6 hours elicits greater Muscle Protein Synthesis: Muscle Protein Synthesis is one of the major factors in maintaining and increasing muscle mass.

Thus, consuming 5 meals per a day would not be effective for Muscle Protein Synthesis; 3 - 4 meals is more effective.

Amount Protein Neeeded On Ketogenic Diet

The amount of protein needed on the Ketogenic Diet appears to be less those consuming a high Carbohydrate Diet.

That due to the fact that ketones are utilized to a greater degree over amino acids.

Research has demonstrated that the body maintains higher levels of the amino acid, Leucine, when in ketosis; Leucine is an anabolic trigger. Reference: The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance, Drs Jeff Volek (PhD Nutrition) and Stephen Phinney, MD/PhD.

However, let say an individual was consuming 200 gram of Protein a day.

Protein:Fat Keto Ratio Example

Protein: 200 gram Per Day = 800 kcal

Carbohydrates: 50 gram Per Day = 200 kcal

Sub Total: Protein (800 kcal) + Carbohydrates (200 kcal) =1000 kcal

Based on the 1000 kcal Sub Total that would mean that you'd need to consuming 333 gram of Fat Per Day (3000 kcals).

Sub Total 1000 divided by 25% (Protein and Carbohydrates) = 4000 kcals. 75% Fat X 4000 kcal = 3000 kcal or 333 gram of fat.

Keto Calculator - Precise, Simple Way to Determine Your Macros

This Ketogenic Calculator makes it quick and easy to determine how much Fat you need based on your Protein Intake.

Summary

1) Protein:Fat Ratio for the Day

It a good idea to keep the Protein:Fat Ratio per meal close. However, the bottom line is the Protein:Fat Ratio for the Day.

2) Meals Per Day

Three (3) to four (4) meals Per Day are more effective for Muscle Protein Synthesis, rather than five (5).

That because Muscle Protein Synthesis is maximized when meals are 4 to 6 hour apart.

Thus, 4 meals spaced ever 4 hour apart would mean eating at let's say 6 am, 10 am, 2 pm and 6 pm.

Eating 5 meals a day would mean eating at let's say 6 am, 10 am, 2 pm, 6 pm and 10 pm. It doable but not practical.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Also, what's wrong with leaving ketosis every now and then?

In my opinion, nothing at all. In a more traditional setting, people would be cycling in and out of ketosis whenever there was a long break between meals or food scarcity. I'm not entirely sold on the idea that we should intentionally put ourselves into simulated deprivation for weeks on end. I'm not criticizing it, and I acknowledge that people have done some fantastic things with the keto approach, but I'm just not sold on it as the Best Thing Ever.

As @kennycro@@aol.com pointed out, you could take a carnivore diet and make it more or less ketogenic based on the protein:fat ratio. I think you have to look at personal history, too. Someone coming from a long term ketogenic diet will likely slip into ketosis more easily at any given protein:fat ratio than someone coming from a higher carb diet. The person with the high carb history might have to intentionally consume more fat if they want to get into ketosis on a carnivore diet.

My opinion is that my time will be best spent researching and experimenting with dietary strategies that are both effective and simple to employ. Most people lack the desire, drive, organization, etc to track their macros and meal plan every day, so I'm drawn to strategies that can produce healthy people without the use of too much math. One thing that attracted me to the carnivore diet was that, while people can make it infinitely complex if they want to, it seems like people still get very good results just by following the (admittedly slightly cult-y) mantra of "Eat meat. Drink Water."
 
the keto approach, ... I'm just not sold on it as the Best Thing Ever.

The Keto Approach

The diet is more like a tool. It works for the right job.

As I have stated in previous post, I enjoy the diet and don't feel deprived.

Most people lack the desire, drive, organization, etc to track their macros and meal plan every day, so I'm drawn to strategies that can produce healthy people without the use of too much math.

Make It Easy

As you essentially stated, the easier something is, the more likely you are to adhere to it and maintain it.

That is one of the reason that I am not an advocate of the Ketogenic Diet. The majority of individual cannot maintain the diet.

The diet with the least amount of work is...

Intermittent Fasting

Just skip a meal or two every now and then. Nothing to track, no math required.

It elicits and effect the is similar to the Ketogenic Diet.

One of the biggest benefits of Intermittent Fasting is "Metabolic Flexibility"; the body become more efficient at utilizing glucose or ketones (body fat).

High Carbohydrate Diets make individuals Glucose Dependent for energy; the body is ineffective at using body fat/ketons.

High Fat Diet make individuals Ketone Dependent for energy; the body is inefficient at accessing glucose.

The Best Diet

The one you can live with on a daily basis and works for you.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Ketosis has been a (successful) weight loss strategy for me on many occasions but I've never had to elevate fat consumption to anything like 75% of calorific intake. In order to get into ketosis I eliminate grain-based foods, sugar and starchy vegetables and up protein to fill the gap. Fat intake does increase as most of my protein sources come with fat but I doubt fat exceeds 30% of calorific intake overall. While in ketosis I can go "mega carnivore" consuming huge steaks, whole chickens etc and have tracked protein consumption up to 400g within a few hours (eg protein-rich meal followed a couple of hours later by protein shake) without being kicked out of ketosis. This is just my own experience but it suggests that the case for fat and against protein in ketosis is over-stated. (When in ketosis I test with urine sticks and due to undiagnosed fixation issue I do so pretty much every time I go to the loo.)
 
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fat...I doubt fat exceeds 30% of calorific intake overall.

High Protein Non-Kegogenic Diet

You are not on a Ketogenic Diet nor on you in ketosis.

No one is going to be in ketosis with a high protein, moderately low fat intake.

There is a "Fat Set Point Intake" that is needed to trigger ketosis. That "Set Point" is around 65% with some recommending 75% of calories consumption that is mandated for ketosis to occur. I noted that in Post #36.

"I doubt..."

This means you are not monitoring and don't know what your "Fat Macro Intake" is.

That equates to guessing; guessing is never good or reliable.

...tracked protein consumption up to 400g within a few hours (eg protein-rich meal followed a couple of hours later by protein shake) without being kicked out of ketosis.

"400 Grams of Protein"

Consuming "up to 400 gram of protein" in a day makes no sense.

Consuming "up to 400 gram" of protein "within a few hours" is bizzare.

It ensure that you are not in ketosis due to your mega protein intake due to...

Gluconeogenesis

Research has clearly demonstrated that mega protein intake combined with low moderate fat intake ensure that the body will convert (Gluconeogenesis) protein into glucose.

Thus, you are on a High Protein/Low to Moderate Fat Diet...NOT a Ketogenic Diet.

I test with urine sticks

Inaccurate Urine Strips

Keto Test Strip are inaccurate; they are providing you with a "False-Positive".

A much better method of determining ketosis is a...

Ketone Meter

This operate in a similar manner to Glucose Meter: a blood sample via pricking your finger on a strip and inserting it into the meter.

With that said, the a good quality Ketone Meter is needed.

Test strips are expensive at $1.00 to $2.00.

The only $1.00 Ketone Test Strips are those that can ONLY be used with the Mojo Ketone Meter.

Since the Mojo Ketone Meter's Test Strips are so cheap (relative to others), it sells well.

Unfortunately, the Mojo Ketone Meter isn't very accurate

Summary

One of two thing is occurring...

1) Anomaly


You are an anomaly, unlike any other individual.

If so, that means your "Case Study" of yourself doesn't apply to others; your "case for fat and against protein in ketosis is over-stated" only applies to you, not one else.

2) False-Positive Test Results

The Keto Test Strips providing you with a "False-Positive" reading; misleading you with misinformation.

As I noted, Keto Test Strips are inaccurate due to a number of factors.

Kenny Croxdale



 
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