Nutrition 100% Carnivore

[LukeV]

 

[LukeV]

(Disjointed post due to low levels of user competence.) I got the chart above from this website:

How Carbs and Protein Affect Ketosis (Keto Research Review) • Sci-Fit

I've not gone to the individual studies but the conclusion of the author is that high(er) levels of protein consumption do not interfere with ketosis. As stated above my personal experience is that once in ketosis you can consume even higher quantities of protein than indicated here.

I also used the keto calculator cited above:

Keto Calculator - Precise, Simple Way to Determine Your Macros

And it recommended to me a diet 50% in fats, not 75%. As I say I have never gone that high in fat consumption yet have been ketogenic unless every keto stick I've ever used has been a false positive.

When I'm on a ketogenic diet my goal is always weight loss so I'm aiming for calories deficit. When I'm looking to lose weight it's because I weigh more than 90kg, so let's assume 95kg. My macros would most commonly look something like this:

Weight: 95kg
Calorie Expenditure: 3000
Deficit target: about 1000 (ie 2000 consumed)
Carbs: 50g (200 cal)
Protein: 250g (1000 cal)
Fat: 75g (675 cal)
Alcohol: 20g (140 cal)

I get and stay in ketosis with little trouble around those parameters.

 

[Snowman]

so I'm aiming for calories deficit.

Carbs: 50g (200 cal)
Protein: 250g (1000 cal)
Fat: 75g (675 cal)
Alcohol: 20g (140 cal

Try running those numbers again with your 1,000 cal deficit added to the fat category. Your body is burning something or you wouldn't be losing weight, right? Based on your protein intake and your positive opinion of ketosis, you're probably burning fat instead of muscle. If you're not feeling tired when you're in ketosis, your probably using close to same amount of energy.

 

[Antti]

First week of the carnivore diet behind me. Apart from meat I've used olive oil a time or two and butter almost every day. I use fat for cooking. I think I may have started to develop a distaste for the olive oil. I also use some spices and herbs. When it comes to salami and sausages etc I've drawn the line at 1g carbs for 100g. Otherwise I've only eaten meat or fish.

I've been feeling great. This has been the easiest diet ever to comply with. I've been well satiated with almost zero cravings. When I get hungry, I want the real food. I have more energy than usual.

I've lost some weight and some circumference from the waist. It's been faster than I expected.

I realize that typically people go through an adaptation period of some weeks. I wonder if it happened really fast for me or if things will become even better. Before the diet, I ate pretty much everything and had eaten a lot of it.

I started on a 20-rep squats program at the same time to see if my recovery is affected by the diet. I squatted 3*20 on three days in seven days and trained on six days as a whole. Zero problems. Couldn't wish for more.

I originally planned on trying the diet out for two or three weeks. I don't think I want to quit it anymore. If I'll start to think I'm missing something I'll add a single thing at a time and see how it makes me feel. When it comes to it, I think the first thing will be some nice scotch.

 

[Snowman]

I originally planned on trying the diet out for two or three weeks. I don't think I want to quit it anymore.

This seems to be an oddly common sentiment among folk who just "give it a try." By no means universal, but common nonetheless. My 30-60 day trial is turning into a 6-12 month trial. You know. For the sake of accuracy and long term data .

I realize that typically people go through an adaptation period of some weeks. I wonder if it happened really fast for me or if things will become even better.

I'm interested as well. There was about 5 days during the second week where it was a bit of a grind. To be fair, it was much less of a grind than I expected, and I had just come from a diet involving lots of starch and not much meat. You may well have been at a better starting point, with less need for adaptation.

 

[Antti]

This seems to be an oddly common sentiment among folk who just "give it a try." By no means universal, but common nonetheless. My 30-60 day trial is turning into a 6-12 month trial. You know. For the sake of accuracy and long term data .



I'm interested as well. There was about 5 days during the second week where it was a bit of a grind. To be fair, it was much less of a grind than I expected, and I had just come from a diet involving lots of starch and not much meat. You may well have been at a better starting point, with less need for adaptation.

How easy was your first week?

For the last year or so I've eaten everything. I spread the year into training cycles, and typically eat cleaner during the early part of the cycle, with the occasional weekend of indulgence, and then by the end of a cycle I start stuffing everything in my mouth. Eating this way gave me a lot of weight but as the waist circumference stayed put I'm led to believe it was mostly lean body mass.

Meat has always been a big part of my diet. In a way, I just cut the other food away now on this diet.

I just finished my last cycle the weekend before I started this diet. I tried to eat myself a bit of a bloat and had eaten lots of carbs and salt; chocolate and crisps and donuts... So I was pretty far from keto-adapted or such.

Even if I'm really happy with the recovery so far I'm a bit concerned how optimal the diet is for hypertrophy. I've read that the diet is great for holding on to the lean body mass one has when trying to lose weight, but I haven't read a lot saying the diet would help hypertrophy. I would like to fill my weight class up after I get my body fat low enough.

 

[Snowman]

How easy was your first week?

It was easy. I noticed an improvement in sleep pretty quickly. If you had asked me about fatigue, I would have said that I was at 90% or more of normal. I bottomed out during the second week, but it honestly wasn't that bad. I trained and had exams just like normal, and never felt like I was putting myself in a bad position, physically or mentally. There are definitely some people who have had a rough time in the gym, but with a lot of them the answer seemed to be 1) More meat, or 2) More salt.

I'm a bit concerned how optimal the diet is for hypertrophy.

I'm interested in this as well. There seems a variety of opinions, but a lot of them fit into two groups. The strictly carnivore group says to gain mass by just eating more meat, or eating more meat and more fat so the protein from the meat can be used more efficiently. The other group seems to support the targeted use of carbs, i.e. eating one or two starchy meals a day in order to benefit from the insulin spikes. My thought is that the strict carnivore version would probably result in slower, leaner mass gain, while the use of carbs would result in faster mass gain, but with more "collateral damage," i.e. fat gain. That is purely conjecture, though.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I'm a bit concerned how optimal the diet is for hypertrophy.

I'm interested in this as well.

Ketogenic Diet: ATP and Oxidative Energy System

The two type of Energy Systems that are minimally affected with a Ketogenic Diet are...

1) ATP/Phosphagen Energy System: Strength Training that is under 30 seconds, preferably 15 seconds or less.

2) Oxidative Energy System: Long endurance events

Hypertrophy Glycolytic Energy System

Hypertrophy Training revolves around performing sets of 8 Repetition or more per set. Thus, Hypertrophy Training falls with in the parameters of 30 seconds to 2 minutes of physical exertion, Glycolysis.

"Keto Adapted" individual have enough glucose stored in the muscle. However, due to being "Keto Adapted" the body isn't able to effective utilize muscle glucose for energy. That is one of the primary reason that it is Hypertrophy Training on a Kegogenic Diet is more challenging.

One solution to this issue may be...

Cluster Set Training

Cluster Sets are define as short rest periods taken between repetition in a set.

300 lb Leg Press Example:

Set One: Perform 5 Repetitions, Rest 10 - 30 Seconds, Perform 5 Repetitions, Rest 10 - 30 Seconds, Perform 5 Repetitions, Rest 10 - 30 Seconds, Perform 5 Repetition. This concludes Set One. Rest for Set Two.

Total Repetition in Set One: 20 Repetition

Perform 4 - 6 Cluster Sets the same as in Set One. Total Repetition in Leg Press Cluster Set Exercise: 80 Repetition for 4 Cluster Sets and 120 Repetition for 6 Leg Press Cluster Sets.

Dr. Jonathan Oliver is one of the leading researcher in this area of Cluster Set Training. Oliver's research found the following.

1) Hypertrophy: Lifter were able to increase muscle mass with this type of Cluster Set Training. However, it was not quite as effective as performing Higher Non-Stop Repetition in the Traditional Bodybuilding Hypertrophy Protocol.

2) Fast Twitch Innervation and Growth: One of the benefits of Cluster Sets was that the short rest periods allowed the Fast Type IIa and "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber to recovery (resynthesis of Muscle ATP) when short rest periods were taken between Repetitions.

This enabled the work to be placed on the Fast and "Super" Fast Muscle Fiber, ensuring growth while maintaining Strength and Power.

Thus, Cluster Sets ensured Muscle Contraction were primarily working off the ATP System rather than the Glycolytic System.

This appears one method that may work for individual on a Kegogenic Diet who's Training focus is on Hypertrophy. I am using this method and it appears to be fairly effective. However, I am still in the "Earn while you learn" area on this.

The strictly carnivore group says to gain mass by just eating more meat, or eating more meat and more fat so the protein from the meat can be used more efficiently. ...My thought is that the strict carnivore version would probably result in slower, leaner mass gain, ...

Calories Count

As I note in a previous post, I dropped 25 lbs by combing the Ketogenic Diet with Intermittent Fasting (dropping from 202 to 177 lbs).

I decided to gain the weight back on the Ketogenic Diet. I dramatically increased my fat intake, maintaining my Fat Percentage at 70% plus, my Protein Percentage at around 25% and Carbohydrates at 50 gram/about 5%.

I gained back 15 lbs, going from 177 to 192 lbs.

"Carnivore group says to gain mass by eating more meat and more fat"

That definitely works. Gaining or losing weight is all about calories.

Summary

1) Hypertrophy Training: It more challenging with a Kegogenic Diet but it can be done.

2) Cluster Sets For Hypertrophy: Dr Jonathan Oliver's research has demonstrated that increasing muscle mass can be accomplished via the ATP System with Cluster Sets.

Cluster Sets are not as effective as Traditional Bodybuilding Hypertrophy Training Methods.

However, Cluster Sets work off the ATP System which is more conducive for individual on the Ketogenic Diet.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Ryan T]

Cool thread, all. Lots of good info both factual and ancedotal. I was interested in 100% carnivore for a period of time and did about 5 days of it. Felt great for even that short period of time. The reason I ended it was more personal/philosophy issues surrounding commercial animal husbandry. I know it's not as simple as, "stop eating animal products and save the environment!", but it didn't sit right for me. I also really don't have the capacity to get all free-range organic produce. (There is a local farmer that lets his cows graze for the majority of the year and then offers grain rations last two months. I liked that and I like supporting local farmers when I can!) I also know that there are initiatives coming such as carbon farming etc... but at this point it wasn't enough for me. Please understand this is IN NO WAY INTENDED to project my thoughts onto someone else; just relating my own experiences.

Best of luck on your paths to better health etc...

Cheers folks!

 

[Snowman]

@Ryan T that's definitely something worth thinking about. You might be interested in this article about sustainable meat production. In my mind, the environmental considerations are not really different from the ethical considerations. It seems to me that, within the realm of responsible agriculture, animal based ag is actually the more efficient and environmentally friendly option. We're definitely not in a great place with meat production right now, but ironically it seems like the only good ways to produce more meat will require implementation of some better practices. I just tell myself I'm driving up demand and forcing innovation

 

[Ryan T]

You might be interested in this article about sustainable meat production.

I think I skimmed this at the beginning of the year, but just re-read a bit of it. Makes some good points. I think the US could learn a lot from the animal rearing practices in the UK, or at least from the blurbs that I've read out their practices. There's probably more to it. I still think the reduction of meat consumption could have overall benefits. Good conversations to have. I think there's always a way to weigh things on the balance, and that's really what it's about. Sustainability doesn't necessarily mean a 1:1 exchange, veggies for meat etc... It means an overhaul in general across the board. I don't pretend to be particularly informed on the topic or "done the research". I'm reasonable but also always at risk for sensational headlines and click-bait stuff too.

If we can be thoughtful about how we consume our food in general and it's sources and not be militant in general, we can work together to solve a lot of problems.

@Snowman We can PM or perhaps start a new thread if you want to discus further between us or the community at large. I realize I'm in danger of hi-jacking this thread and diverting the OP's intent for it!

Cheers!

 

[Suggy3001]

Interesting. I heard this guy on a podcast

The Benefits of Eating Quality Red Meat - STRENGTH SENSEI

Big on benefits of meat for athletes.

 

[Michael Scott]

@Snowman, are you still eating Carnivore only? I ask because I came across this way of eating, then saw this thread, and was wondering how it is going for you, if you are still following Carnivore.

 

[Snowman]

are you still eating Carnivore only?

Yup. I've dabbled with a couple weeks of adding very small servings of fruit, but it didn't seem to be beneficial. Right now I'm still doing lots of beef, eggs in the morning, and a little bacon and dairy thrown in. It's still doing good things for me, so at this point I'm planning on staying with it until I get more blood work done this fall. No scurvy yet, and steak still tastes good

 

[LoriLifts]

Yup. I've dabbled with a couple weeks of adding very small servings of fruit, but it didn't seem to be beneficial. Right now I'm still doing lots of beef, eggs in the morning, and a little bacon and dairy thrown in

We're on the same path.
I added some non animal products back into my diet for awhile. I was hoping that it wouldn't be a big deal. It did make a difference and not in a good way.
I'm back on the steak...

 

[Michael Scott]

@Snowman & @LoriLifts, how did you do at first? I see where people struggled for the first week, the first few weeks, some for even longer periods before they became adjusted. I was just wondering what your personal experiences were at the beginning, if you care to share.

 

[Snowman]

Week 1 was fine. There were some carb cravings, but I could usually get around those by eating enough steak and bacon. Some people notice issues with constipation/diarrhea, but I simply started to go less often.

Week 2 was a little weird. I felt both better rested, but also a little fatigued, like I had lost my top gear. I think I was sleeping better, hence the feeling of being more rested. I think my body had to figure out how to run without any carbs; managing the protein, fat, and putting the cellular machinery in place to turn protein into glucose at a higher rate. The carb cravings started to decrease.

By week 3 my body had gotten things straightened out, I got my top gear back, still felt fantastically well rested, and everything really started to take off.

I guess my adjustment period was two weeks, with the second week being a little tougher than the first. I think 2-4 weeks is a realistic expectation for adaptation; more than four weeks and I would start to wonder if there's something that's not quite fitting. Too much or too little fat, not eating the right kinds of meat, or simply a situation where the individual is not particularly well suited to a carnivorous diet. I know some people would call me a heretic for that last part, but I think some people simply do better on certain diets than others. I responded very well to carnivore, but that doesn't mean everyone else will. It does annoy me, though, when people try something for a week and then say it didn't work for them. It takes months to fully adapt to a large dietary change, and at least 4 weeks before someone can claim that they know how their body responds to something (unless you're dealing with actual food allergies or sensitivities).

 

[LoriLifts]

@Snowman & @LoriLifts, how did you do at first? I see where people struggled for the first week, the first few weeks, some for even longer periods before they became adjusted. I was just wondering what your personal experiences were at the beginning, if you care to share.

I'm back on the meats, taking it one week at a time.
Like with @Snowman , day 7-10 is usually the toughest. Not lots of energy, restless sleep.
But once I'm over the hump? It's a whole new world! Cravings are gone and I usually feel terrific.

Today is Day 3 for me. Better known as "peeing like a racehorse".

 

[Michael Scott]

I am also on day 3, but I normally drink over a gallon of water, so I haven't seen a major increase in urinary output.

I'm back on the meats, taking it one week at a time.
Like with @Snowman , day 7-10 is usually the toughest. Not lots of energy, restless sleep.
But once I'm over the hump? It's a whole new world! Cravings are gone and I usually feel terrific.

Today is Day 3 for me. Better known as "peeing like a racehorse".

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I normally drink over a gallon of water

Drinking over a gallon of water...

It amounts to using a sledgehammer instead of a fly swatter; it is over kill.

No one need to drink that much water.

Kenny Croxdale