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2nd Best

solarbear

Level 5 Valued Member
Looking for the 2nd Best Back Exercise.

I know chin ups and pull ups are the best.

However, Chin Up seem to be really aggravating my golfers elbow. Which is frustrating, because I devoted a few months to improving them.

What's 2nd best and will cause less aggravation?
 
solarbear said:
Looking for the 2nd Best Back Exercise.

I know chin ups and pull ups are the best.

However, Chin Up seem to be really aggravating my golfers elbow. Which is frustrating, because I devoted a few months to improving them.

What's 2nd best and will cause less aggravation?
Click to expand...
I have really bad elbows and have found neutral grip pull ups don't bother my elbows at all. If that's still not possible I would do bent over rows using a trap bar or dumbbell/Kroc Rows.
 
silveraw said:
What kind of equipment do you have?
Click to expand...
Dumbbells, Kettlebells, Barbell, Trap bar. All the geezer garage stuff. But no pulleys.

Deadlifts are part of my main program, so looking for something for the lats.

Been doing neutral grip pullups, still seem to have this issue, though KB clean and press could also be a source of aggravation.

Did incline press and KB Row instead of clean and press this week and seemed to help a lot with the aggravation. But haven't found a replacement for pullups.

Think I will experiment with some different types of Barbell Rows, the suggestion to use a trap bar is interesting.
 
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solarbear said:
Dumbbells, Kettlebells, Barbell, Trap bar. All the geezer garage stuff. But no pulleys.

Deadlifts are part of my main program, so looking for something for the lats.

Been doing neutral grip pullups, still seem to have this issue, though KB clean and press could also be a source of aggravation.

Did incline press and KB Row instead of clean and press this week and seemed to help a lot with the aggravation. But haven't found a replacement for pullups.

Think I will experiment with some different types of Barbell Rows, the suggestion to use a trap bar is interesting.
Click to expand...
I would think the issue is more with the KB C&P.
 
ShawnM said:
I would think the issue is more with the KB C&P.
Click to expand...

Quite possibly. I was doing Incline Press and Chin Ups and seemed to have some aggravation. The clean and press seemed to make it worse. Then again I went from doing something irritating 2x per week to nearly every day. I kind of think it is just this over use.
 
All great suggestions so far. I'm just going to toss some food for thought out here, as I am always aware of how I move my body after years of weird "dysfunctions."

If you find that certain exercises aggravate it but variations of those exercises don't, that ought to clue you into how you are moving differently in one exercise vs another.

For example, if chin up hurt your elbows but neutral grip pullups don't, how are you moving differently in chin ups (beyond just being supinated)? Are your shoulders moving differently in chin ups than during pullups? Do you have the same shoulder range of motion in chin ups that you do in pullups? If not, your elbows might be seeing more force/strain than they do in pullups.

Now, the self awareness goal is to apply that kind of thinking to other exercises you suspect might be the culprit. If you suspect the C+P, perhaps post a form check for good measure.

Hope it helps!
 
solarbear said:
Looking for the 2nd Best Back Exercise.

I know chin ups and pull ups are the best.

However, Chin Up seem to be really aggravating my golfers elbow. Which is frustrating, because I devoted a few months to improving them.

What's 2nd best and will cause less aggravation?
Click to expand...

Everybody else is going to say some flavor of rows.

Which is a solid choice, and especially good for shoulder health. You should always do some rows for shoulder health.

But....

The real answer is:

KB/DB pullovers.

AKA

"The upper body squat"

To emphasize your lats more than your pecs, keep your elbows in.

KBs have ergonomic advantages over DBs, especially if you're trying to hit the lats more, where the neutral grip makes it feel more natural to keep your elbows tight rather than flared.

How can you not respect something Arnie, Reg Park, and Frank Zane loved?

Not to mention what it does for thoracic extension and shoulder mobility that carries over to pressing.



dumbbell-pullovers.jpg




www.themanblueprint.com

Old school muscle: The Dumbbell Pullover — The Man Blueprint

The dumbbell pullover – where do we start with this one? 1911 sounds like a good place. This was the year that pullovers were first introduced into the world by a bloke called Alan Calvert – a bit of a fitness buff at the time. Shortly after their introduction, the dumbbell pullover took the fitne
www.themanblueprint.com www.themanblueprint.com


Plus, most people don't do them anymore, so......novel stimulus!
 
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solarbear said:
Interesting response. Is there any way to do the exercise to target the lats as much as possible?
Click to expand...

Yes.

It's mostly about your elbow angle and internal / external rotation.

Keep your elbows in if you want more lats, plus lower hips.



Note that the comment about the neutral grip advantage of a Swiss bar applies to KBs.
 
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Personally, I really like pendlay rows and rarely do pull ups because they tend to bother my elbows. It's not worth the irritation. Snatches and swings are great for the upper back and better yet double kb swing. Deadlifts build a solid back. Double kb military press.
 
solarbear said:
I know chin ups and pull ups are the best.

What's 2nd best and will cause less aggravation?
Click to expand...

Best

This is one of the most trite and meaingless word there.

A more effective phrase is that is that something is one of the best; dependent on what the objective is.

With that in mind, let's look at some of The Best Lat Exercises...

Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises

www.t-nation.com

Inside the Muscles: Best Back and Biceps Exercises

After testing 45 different back and biceps exercises with EMG, here are the ones that came out on top.
www.t-nation.com www.t-nation.com

Research by Contreras detemined the following...

ExerciseLong Head of BicepsLatMid TrapLower Trap
Bodyweight TRX Inverted Row20.3
33.4		51.1
82.6		25.3
41.8		25.6
43.7
Bodyweight TRX Feet Elevated Inverted Row21.2
61.0		62.4
124.0		24.8
61.4		26.2
53.6
25 lb TRX Feet Elevated Inverted Row27.7
100.0		54.7
138.0		52.2
98.8		57.2
101.0
Bodyweight Chin Up43.2
100.0		80.5
133.0		32.2
71.4		44.6
101.0
Bodyweight Close Parallel Grip Pull Up40.3
90.4		82.5
131.0		24.2
58.0		31.6
69.1
Bodyweight Wide Parallel Grip Pull Up38.2
90.2		75.6
140.0		24.3
62.6		32.5
83.8
Bodyweight Wide Pronated Grip Pull Up28.0
65.8		85.5
151.0		27.9
63.3		33.4
87.3
90 lb Chin Up107.0
205.0		108.0
159.0		41.9
80.2		58.3
104.0
70 lb Wide Parallel Grip Pull Up109.0
184.0		75.3
145.0		41.2
79.1		50.9
105.0
45 lb Wide Pronated Grip Pull Up65.8
145.0		102.0
167.0		33.4
77.6		41.1
115.0
315 lb Rack Pull7.4
23.8		89.4
152.0		71.7
114.0		47.6
86.1
405 lb Rack Pull6.8
11.8		93.1
163.0		67.4
131.0		50.3
90.9
185 lb Overhand Grip Bent Over Row8.6
25.5		68.7
130.0		62.2
125.0		51.0
110.0
185 lb Underhand Grip Bent Over Row19.1
72.8		72.7
134.0		58.6
146.0		50.6
130.0
225 lb Overhand Grip Bent Over Row18.4
75.7		76.8
140.0		67.5
146.0		52.4
112.0
225 lb Underhand Grip Bent Over Row41.6
132.0		78.3
146.0		61.9
142.0		48.5
116.0
90 lb Dumbbell Bent Over Row14.4
73.6		63.0
140.0		123.0
226.0		99.0
160.0
BW Overhand Grip Feet Elevated Inverted Row14.9
100.0		48.6
119.0		54.5
107.0		53.4
103.0
BW Underhand Grip Feet Elevated Inverted Row17.3
82.4		69.4
158.0		38.9
86.7		33.3
70.1
90 lb Dumbbell Chest Supported Row28.1
135.0		87.4
150.0		68.2
134.0		59.8
120.0
12 lb Prone Trap Raise18.3
39.0		11.0
22.1		72.5
238.0		72.8
170.0
25 lb Prone Trap Raise33.9
94.1		15.9
30.4		94.2
186.0		81.6
165.0
50 lb Dumbbell Elbows Out Chest Supported Row42.6
78.8		24.6
87.8		100.0
194.0		71.9
180.0
Blue Band Seated Row27.5
103.0		75.8
128.0		53.9
103.0		52.9
77.7
280 lb Underhand Grip Pulldown22.3
54.6		71.2
129.0		22.7
55.0		32.6
74.0
240 lb Wide Grip Pulldown16.2
52.9		63.5
108.0		29.0
56.6		38.8
69.5
240 lb Behind Neck Wide Grip Pulldown23.7
74.6		67.0
117.0		23.6
63.8		32.3
85.6
260 lb Narrow Parallel Grip Pulldown22.9
51.4		58.7
97.5		29.9
62.6		42.2
87.4
80 lb Pullover2.1
3.8		63.1
106.0		20.0
35.0		14.7
22.3
100 lb Straight Arm Pulldown2.6
5.3		65.1
109.0		19.5
39.4		21.5
39.8
120 lb Straight Arm Pulldown3.2
9.8		73.1
131.0		17.1
33.5		20.6
37.9
220 lb Seated Row16.0
69.7		48.0
115.0		29.8
55.0		28.7
52.1
200 lb Wide Grip Seated Row24.0
61.9		28.6
58.4		50.6
116.0		40.0
70.1
120 lb Low Pulley Face Pull20.5
66.4		15.8
43.3		43.3
84.6		45.9
79.4
120 lb Mid Pulley Face Pull18.2
77.5		20.5
51.4		45.8
83.0		53.1
97.5
120 lb High Pulley Face Pull10.9
51.5		23.6
85.1		46.3
82.6		54.1
87.9
Band Face Pull13.2
28.7		14.1
29.6		37.0
68.3		60.3
109.0
100 lb One Arm Row33.1
85.1		77.2
143.0		84.3
129.0		66.8
139.0
150 lb Standing Cable One Arm Row18.8
52.6		72.0
131.0		40.3
73.4		41.1
77.5
JC Band Row10.2
46.3		55.0
96.3		30.7
73.7		35.9
54.5
60 lb Dumbbell Curl52.9
118.0		21.0
72.7		68.7
161.0		43.8
88.8
95 lb Barbell Curl64.9
98.3		14.0
23.2		50.6
88.3		34.2
57.6
115 lb Barbell Curl77.1.0
119.0		15.7
46.0		62.6
102.0		42.5
69.1
135 lb Barbell Curl94.7
138.0		17.2
50.9		66.8
106.0		44.9
69.7
155 lb Barbell Cheat Curl93.9
136.0		21.3
53.1		73.0
150.0		47.9
105.0
85 lb Reverse Curl34.0
77.8		12.0
20.0		64.6
93.2		49.5
65.8
50 lb Hammer Curl47.8
98.1		11.8
18.3		52.3
109.0		37.7
84.5
60 lb Hammer Curl54.9
105.0		15.1
22.8		55.4
92.4		43.0
77.1
115 lb Easy Bar Curl74.7
146.0		11.7
19.2		72.4
110.0		56.1
78.4
50 lb One Arm Preacher Curl80.0
145.0		12.5
26.7		48.9
95.4		37.3
71.9
50 lb Concentration Curl76.1
143.0		20.9
54.1		47.3
85.6		33.9
63.1
30 lb Dumbbell Incline Curl53.6
109.0		15.8
34.7		26.8
61.1		20.6
46.3

Contreras narrows it down more...

LATS
Mean: Weighted Chin-up, Weighted Pronated Wide-Grip Pull-up, Rack Pull
Peak: Weighted Pronated Wide-Grip Pull-up, Rack Pull, Underhand-Grip Feet Elevated Inverted Row

MID TRAP​

Mean: Dumbbell Bent-Over Row, Dumbbell Elbows Out Chest-Supported Row, Prone Trap Raise
Peak: Prone Trap Raise, Dumbbell Bent-Over Row, Dumbbell Elbows Out Chest-Supported Row

LOWER TRAP​

Mean: Dumbbell Bent-Over Row, Prone Trap Raise, Dumbbell Elbows Out Chest-Supported Row
Peak: Dumbbell Elbows Out Chest Supported-Row, Prone Trap Raise, Dumbbell Bent-Over Row

solarbear said:
However, Chin Up seem to be really aggravating my golfers elbow.
Click to expand...
Taking The Biceps Out Of The Equation

This method may minimize or eliminate aggravatging your golfer's elbow.

Straight-Arm Pulldown


Straight Arm Pulldowns can be performed with a Triceps Rope which provides a Greater Range of Motion, an E-Z Curl Bar, etc.

Straight Arm Cable Pull Downs: 3 Variations - Lats Exercise


Changing the Angle changes the Exercise; Standing Upright vs Leaning Forward, work the Lats differntly.

UnderLoading The Lats

In Traditional Pull Ups and Chins, the Biceps (weaker muscle) are OverLoaded; the Lats are UnderLoaded.

The key to OverLoading the Lats is place more of the workload on them rather than the Biceps.

Straight Arm Lat Pulldown increase the workload.
 
watchnerd said:
Everybody else is going to say some flavor of rows.

Which is a solid choice, and especially good for shoulder health. You should always do some rows for shoulder health.

But....

The real answer is:

KB/DB pullovers.

AKA

"The upper body squat"

To emphasize your lats more than your pecs, keep your elbows in.

KBs have ergonomic advantages over DBs, especially if you're trying to hit the lats more, where the neutral grip makes it feel more natural to keep your elbows tight rather than flared.

How can you not respect something Arnie, Reg Park, and Frank Zane loved?

Not to mention what it does for thoracic extension and shoulder mobility that carries over to pressing.



dumbbell-pullovers.jpg




www.themanblueprint.com

Old school muscle: The Dumbbell Pullover — The Man Blueprint

The dumbbell pullover – where do we start with this one? 1911 sounds like a good place. This was the year that pullovers were first introduced into the world by a bloke called Alan Calvert – a bit of a fitness buff at the time. Shortly after their introduction, the dumbbell pullover took the fitne
www.themanblueprint.com www.themanblueprint.com


Plus, most people don't do them anymore, so......novel stimulus!
Click to expand...
I would never have considered these for an isometric...until now.
 
Kenny Croxdale said:
Straight Arm Cable Pull Downs: 3 Variations - Lats Exercise
Click to expand...

Thanx for the ideas guys.

That would be a good variation. Only, I would have to use bands for them.

After a couple days off (chins and cleans) and simply massaging, it is pretty much pain free, currently. My plan is to take 3 weeks off clean and pressing. Focusing on Incline Press (as it doesn't seem to aggravate it) and some form of pullover or row; probably pullover as I have not done it in decades.

Going to research and explore my clean form. Doing clean and press 5x per week with Easy Strength seems to have been a mistake. I went from an easy 5 sets of 2 to a solid 5x5 by adding a rep each workout... probably too many reps too many days per week. Might have just been tendonitis from cleaning too often.

Or maybe there is some sort of tweak I can do to minimize the strain on the elbow. I will probably apply some form of brace but will also be looking for the perfect clean form.

Goal is to run Dry Fighting Weight, after this little cleaning break.
 
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