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Barbell 405 Deadlift Form Check

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Steve Freides said:
Anything that makes you less responsible for what's going on with your body is, in my mind, a thing that needs to be weighed carefully for its benefits and its detriments. I'm not sure that there isn't a continuum that begins with a rock, then a kettlebell or dumbbell, next a barbell, continues through various states of gear wearing, and goes on to the smith machine and the pec dec. For my DL/SQ/BP, I'm willing to skip over the rock, and the kettlebell or dumbbell, and use the barbell, but that's about as far as I choose to go.

The other exception to my own rule would apply only to people who lift a lot more than me, e.g., I think squatting 1000 lbs has got to be more than the knees nature gave us are designed to bear, so if I was in that territory, I'd consider knee wraps.

-S-
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I can get behind this. Most of my lifting is in nothing but shorts and a T shirt (and the T shirt is optional), barefoot. This includes barbell stuff like rows, shrugs, floor presses, cleans and presses, kb or DB movements, odd object movements like sandbags, and bodyweight movements suck as planks or pullups or goblet squats, etc...

Regards

Eric
 
@Dylan Kampman the pull looks good, but the start you are hyperextending a bit, probably from breathing into your abdomen. It might help to think of breathing air into your obliques also, but regardless, this will autocorrect as you get more comfortable over time.

I like the vivos!
 
I'm on the side of @Steve Freides here. The belt is gear. I'd argue that it's the most performance enhancing gear there is (it won't give you 100s of lbs like a multi-ply squat suit will, but nobody would wear a suit without a belt).

As someone who trains exclusively without a belt for deadlifting (and only for max effort squats), I feel qualified to chime in. The belt will not protect you from getting hurt if you screw up. And yes, if you rely on it, it will make you weak. The comment "99 out of 100 people can lift more with a belt than without" completely ignores the fact that most never practice without the belt. My best straight weight, off the floor pulls with a belt are 485 conventional and 480 sumo. I ditched the belt after getting serious with conjugate I pulled 505 conventional and 485 sumo, both from a 2" deficit and both beltless. I've also pulled a 4" deficit beltless 475. I would argue that I've bulletproofed my trunk region so well, that the belt has become uncomfortable for me and I may not be able to pull more with it. One day I'll find out, but the point is I don't need it, and Konstantin didn't need it either (only 9lb advantage from belt and single-ply suit, difference could be chalked up to the suit, better rest, or any other factor besides the belt). Konstantin was special, but I assure you I'm not. The only special thing about me is I was willing to learn to deadlift without it. The key is to do a tremendous amount of work on your trunk (abs/obliques/back).
 
I would like to add that I largely agree with @Steve Freides on this. I lift less with a belt than without, except maybe in squats. Knee wraps have not ever had any particular effect on me either as far as I can tell. A squat suit or groove briefs, that's a different story. But I don't push out or in, that I am aware of, the core just gets tense. I do not hold any world records, but I have hit a comletely Raw 650 squat, and 850 in a suit. I am currently repping with 595 in DL training in a pair of shorts and flip flops. You lift how you lift, and different equipment affects people differently. For the record, I do own a belt, it's a 13mm Inzer lever and I don't think they ever "Break in".
 
I personally have not used a belt at all so I can't comment on that, but I do think that deadlifting with the bar essentially raised 3" takes a lot out of the movement. That's like starting close to knee height, and at least for me the first few inches are the hardest part of the lift. 3" range of motion seems significant.
 
ChiBill said:
I personally have not used a belt at all so I can't comment on that, but I do think that deadlifting with the bar essentially raised 3" takes a lot out of the movement. That's like starting close to knee height, and at least for me the first few inches are the hardest part of the lift. 3" range of motion seems significant.
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Rack pulls can be great to train. I am currently doing a block of them vs regular deadlifts (as well as squats with SSB/yoke bar and barbell floor presses). It's not my idea but my online coaches idea. I'm setting the bar just below my knees. I didnt know how much weight to use so I'm just adding 15% more than if I was doing a normal deadlift (I'll adjust as I get more experience). Of course, if you are not using more weight then it probably defeats the purpose. I'm only 3 weeks in so I cant comment on how effective it will be, but I do find them interesting (and I trust the coach). For 1, I'm used to moving past my knees relatively quickly (momentum of the bar already moving). I think my weak point with the deadlift is not on the ground but somewhere about halfway from the ground to my knee.

Another interesting observation... With a normal deadlift, I can usually pull some slack out of the bar to make it raise up an inch or so (I have no idea if it is actually an inch, but I can feel the bar bow). With the rack pull, it is harder to pull out as much slack since the moment arm is shorter (I'm basing this off "feel" and not measured bar bend).

Regards,

Eric
 
william bad butt said:
With a normal deadlift, I can usually pull some slack out of the bar to make it raise up an inch or so (I have no idea if it is actually an inch, but I can feel the bar bow).
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This is a reason, at least for me, to go with competition-spec equipment. The plates are thinner, they're closer to the center of the bar, and the bar bends less if you're using USAPL/IPF-spec equipment.

-S-
 
william bad butt said:
Rack pulls can be great to train. I am currently doing a block of them vs regular deadlifts (as well as squats with SSB/yoke bar and barbell floor presses). It's not my idea but my online coaches idea. I'm setting the bar just below my knees. I didnt know how much weight to use so I'm just adding 15% more than if I was doing a normal deadlift (I'll adjust as I get more experience). Of course, if you are not using more weight then it probably defeats the purpose. I'm only 3 weeks in so I cant comment on how effective it will be, but I do find them interesting (and I trust the coach). For 1, I'm used to moving past my knees relatively quickly (momentum of the bar already moving). I think my weak point with the deadlift is not on the ground but somewhere about halfway from the ground to my knee.

Another interesting observation... With a normal deadlift, I can usually pull some slack out of the bar to make it raise up an inch or so (I have no idea if it is actually an inch, but I can feel the bar bow). With the rack pull, it is harder to pull out as much slack since the moment arm is shorter (I'm basing this off "feel" and not measured bar bend).

Regards,

Eric
Click to expand...
Rack pulls are a lot of fun but they can also be harder than off the floor. First, the slack...even a deadlift bar won't bend much because the bar weight is resting on the pins via the center area of the bar, as opposed to plates at the end of the bar like in block pulls. I only use a stiff bar for rack pulls so there's no bend whatsoever. So the slack is removed entirely, plus you also have friction from the metal on metal contact.

Then there's the sticking point. Rack pulls remove leg drive to isolate the back. Louie Simmons said at the same level of preparedness, he pulled 760 off pin 3, 730 off pin 2, 705 off pin 1, then 722 from the floor. He could pull more from the floor than pin 1. He's a short guy, I've heard from taller lifters that even their pin 3 record is less than off the floor. There was a guy from Westside a while back, Jake Norman, sumo puller. He was stuck at 880. Louie said he had tremendous leg drive but a weak back. He had him do a 4" block pull and the best he could do was 810. So his training was then focused on breaking his record in the block pull. After adding 20-30lb to it, he pulled 900 in a meet.

I haven't pulled off the floor yet, over the last four months I pulled 540 from pin 3, 550 from pin 2, and 540 from pin 1. Pins 3 and 2 felt easier than a regular pull, but pin 1 felt way harder than off the floor, it puts me in an awful position where I can totally forget about any leg drive whatsoever. It felt worse than 2" and 4" deficits (including sumo deficits). I missed 560 after 540. But my pin 1 record gives me confidence that I'm good for 550 off the floor, especially with a deadlift bar. Also, at an equivalent height block pull, I bet I could do 575ish, that's how much easier a block pull is vs a rack pull.
 
william bad butt said:
Another interesting observation... With a normal deadlift, I can usually pull some slack out of the bar to make it raise up an inch or so (I have no idea if it is actually an inch, but I can feel the bar bow). With the rack pull, it is harder to pull out as much slack since the moment arm is shorter (I'm basing this off "feel" and not measured bar bend).
Click to expand...
Very true. Henry Rollins' adage of "200lbs is always 200lbs," doesn't always apply.
 
westsider19 said:
Rack pulls are a lot of fun but they can also be harder than off the floor. First, the slack...even a deadlift bar won't bend much because the bar weight is resting on the pins via the center area of the bar, as opposed to plates at the end of the bar like in block pulls. I only use a stiff bar for rack pulls so there's no bend whatsoever. So the slack is removed entirely, plus you also have friction from the metal on metal contact.

Then there's the sticking point. Rack pulls remove leg drive to isolate the back. Louie Simmons said at the same level of preparedness, he pulled 760 off pin 3, 730 off pin 2, 705 off pin 1, then 722 from the floor. He could pull more from the floor than pin 1. He's a short guy, I've heard from taller lifters that even their pin 3 record is less than off the floor. There was a guy from Westside a while back, Jake Norman, sumo puller. He was stuck at 880. Louie said he had tremendous leg drive but a weak back. He had him do a 4" block pull and the best he could do was 810. So his training was then focused on breaking his record in the block pull. After adding 20-30lb to it, he pulled 900 in a meet.

I haven't pulled off the floor yet, over the last four months I pulled 540 from pin 3, 550 from pin 2, and 540 from pin 1. Pins 3 and 2 felt easier than a regular pull, but pin 1 felt way harder than off the floor, it puts me in an awful position where I can totally forget about any leg drive whatsoever. It felt worse than 2" and 4" deficits (including sumo deficits). I missed 560 after 540. But my pin 1 record gives me confidence that I'm good for 550 off the floor, especially with a deadlift bar. Also, at an equivalent height block pull, I bet I could do 575ish, that's how much easier a block pull is vs a rack pull.
Click to expand...

This is a great writeup lots of gems here. Yes, I'm also using my stiffer bar. I didnt want to bang up my brand new deadlift bar! ; )

I am also learning that my legs are much stronger than my back. My squat is almost the same as my deadlift, which I think is unusual (most people deadlift more). And I was expecting these rack pulls to be much easier than they were. I only have a couple workouts in. Yesterday I worked up to almost 400 lb (my max normal deadlift is in the mid 500's lb, fyi). I had no problem lifting the weight, but I'll be honest, it was much harder than I expected and harder than it should have been. I was supposed to be at a 6.5 RPE per my training program... It felt heavier.

I'm looking forward to see what this training does for me. During this block I am focusing primarily on SSB squats, below knee rack pulls, floor presses, rows, and shrugs. Then Later in the year I will transition to the classic powerlifts and tey to do a competition in the Fall. I have very little experience doing shrugs and rows. Yesterday I did 3 sets of 10 reps with 185 lb shrugs and 95 lb rows. I imagine a 95 lb row is pretty weak for a 500 lb squatter, 550 lb deadlifter... I am still learning these lifts and I think I have a lot of room to grow (and hopefully they buildup my squat/deadlift).

Regards,

Eric
 
william bad butt said:
And I was expecting these rack pulls to be much easier than they were. I only have a couple workouts in. Yesterday I worked up to almost 400 lb (my max normal deadlift is in the mid 500's lb, fyi). I had no problem lifting the weight, but I'll be honest, it was much harder than I expected and harder than it should have been. I was supposed to be at a 6.5 RPE per my training program... It felt heavier.
Click to expand...
When I had 135 on pin 1, it felt like 225. And 225 felt like 315, 315 felt like 405, etc. So you're not alone :)
 
westsider19 said:
I'm on the side of @Steve Freides here. The belt is gear. I'd argue that it's the most performance enhancing gear there is (it won't give you 100s of lbs like a multi-ply squat suit will, but nobody would wear a suit without a belt).

As someone who trains exclusively without a belt for deadlifting (and only for max effort squats), I feel qualified to chime in. The belt will not protect you from getting hurt if you screw up. And yes, if you rely on it, it will make you weak. The comment "99 out of 100 people can lift more with a belt than without" completely ignores the fact that most never practice without the belt. My best straight weight, off the floor pulls with a belt are 485 conventional and 480 sumo. I ditched the belt after getting serious with conjugate I pulled 505 conventional and 485 sumo, both from a 2" deficit and both beltless. I've also pulled a 4" deficit beltless 475. I would argue that I've bulletproofed my trunk region so well, that the belt has become uncomfortable for me and I may not be able to pull more with it. One day I'll find out, but the point is I don't need it, and Konstantin didn't need it either (only 9lb advantage from belt and single-ply suit, difference could be chalked up to the suit, better rest, or any other factor besides the belt). Konstantin was special, but I assure you I'm not. The only special thing about me is I was willing to learn to deadlift without it. The key is to do a tremendous amount of work on your trunk (abs/obliques/back).
Click to expand...
I would argue that if you can’t lift more with a belt right away, it’s because you haven’t been practicing with one.

You could easily fix that, but you’re not required to do anything that you have no interest in doing.
 
3linesPt said:
I would argue that if you can’t lift more with a belt right away, it’s because you haven’t been practicing with one.

You could easily fix that, but you’re not required to do anything that you have no interest in doing.
Click to expand...
It's a valid argument, especially when considering the increased IAP. I used to use it all the time though, and still use it when squatting.
 

On The Use Weight Belts & Issues of Back Belts - backfitpro

The intention of this article is to assist the reader in making their own decisions on wearing a belt & to suggest guidelines for their prescription/use.
www.backfitpro.com www.backfitpro.com

I've never been more convinced about belt usage. To paraphrase Dr. McGill:
-belts increase risk of injury and severity of injury
-they make you weak
-they increase IAP, but contrary to popular opinion, this does not reduce spinal load, and may in fact increase spinal load
-belts can have a positive or negative effect depending on a lifter's style
-if you can lift significantly more with it, your technique is not good and your risk of injury is high to begin with
-if you can maintain a neutral spine and/or rigid torso, the difference under max effort is negligible

This jive with everything I've experienced in practice.
 
3linesPt said:
I would argue that if you can’t lift more with a belt right away, it’s because you haven’t been practicing with one.

You could easily fix that, but you’re not required to do anything that you have no interest in doing.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but the belt doesn't help everyone, even with practice. It does seem to help most, but it's hard to really know when most guys go to the belt right out of the gate and never really lift without it.
 
westsider19 said:

On The Use Weight Belts & Issues of Back Belts - backfitpro

The intention of this article is to assist the reader in making their own decisions on wearing a belt & to suggest guidelines for their prescription/use.
www.backfitpro.com www.backfitpro.com

I've never been more convinced about belt usage. To paraphrase Dr. McGill:
-belts increase risk of injury and severity of injury
-they make you weak
-they increase IAP, but contrary to popular opinion, this does not reduce spinal load, and may in fact increase spinal load
-belts can have a positive or negative effect depending on a lifter's style
-if you can lift significantly more with it, your technique is not good and your risk of injury is high to begin with
-if you can maintain a neutral spine and/or rigid torso, the difference under max effort is negligible

This jive with everything I've experienced in practice.
Click to expand...
I don't know a lot about McGill, but he's growing on me with statements like that.
 
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