500 lb Deadlift for Men - Sinister?

Is a 500 lb barbell deadlift a good equivalent of the 48 kg "Sinister?"

  • Yes,5 big wheels, 495/500 lb or 225 kg, is a Sinister barbell DL.

    Votes: 37 69.8%
  • No, 5 wheels is too heavy.

    Votes: 3 5.7%
  • No, 5 wheels is too light.

    Votes: 13 24.5%

  • Total voters
    53
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Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I will be taking several polls here, looking at whether we think we might have numbers that represent the equivalent of "Simple" and "Sinister" for the barbell deadlift, performed according to Raw powerlifting rules - a belt is allowed but no other supportive gear or clothing.

No science claimed here - I am going by my gut in suggesting around 500 lbs., and that includes my recollection of Pavel and others mentioning this as a serious amount of weight to deadlift for an average size adult male. It represent over 2.5 times bodyweight for a 180 lb. man, and exactly 2.5 times bodyweight for someone who weighs 200.

In actual numbers, I will suggest 225 kg, which is 495 lbs. We'll call either of those a 500 lb. DL. In pounds, 495 is also exactly 5 big wheels (45 lb. plates) on either side of a standard, 45 lb. bar.

If you don't like 5 big wheels for this, please comment as by replying below and, of course, please vote on the poll. We'll deal with "Simple" and numbers for women separately.

If you don't think we should have a barbell DL Sinister, you may say that below as well.

-S-
 
Last edited:

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

I voted for "Yes" due to several elements:

Pavel’s figures
Friends of mine performances (swings @48 + GU@40)
An extrapolation of my deadlift while I swing @40 + GU@32. (DL 130, twice bdw)

Kind regards,

Pet’
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
No straps, and if it's up to me, no gear. A raw DL as allowed in a powerlifting federation - belt is legal but that's it.

-S-
 

Antti

Level 8 Valued Member
Ideally, I'd go with a multiplier of bodyweight. For example, for kettlebell military pressing half bodyweight is an admirable goal.

I'm by no means an expert in deadlifts, so be wary of my estimates. However, I'd gravitate towards something like 3x for sinister and 2x for simple.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

Is there somewhere a chart with both DL weights and the bodyweight of the person who is deadlifting, ordered by category ?
e.g.
bdw 60kg => DL XXXkg
bdw 70kg => DL XXXkg

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Buffalo

Level 5 Valued Member
I voted yes. While I am along way from a 500 pull, I see it as achievable. But something you seriously have to train for.
 

Deleted member 5559

Guest
500 not being more than 2.5x BW for >200# I don't think is a big deal. 48kg bell should be easier for heavier guys too. I find 32kg and 315# DL to be about the same working weight for me at 200#. I can work with 405 and the 40 about the same too. I feel that I'll hit 500 and 48 about the same time. Not being all that strong, I do feel my strength is pretty balanced except for my pressing being weak.

The relative strength idea is really good too but then we would also want to redefine Simple and Sinister for different bodyweight.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
500 not being more than 2.5x BW for >200# I don't think is a big deal. 48kg bell should be easier for heavier guys too. I find 32kg and 315# DL to be about the same working weight for me at 200#. I can work with 405 and the 40 about the same too. I feel that I'll hit 500 and 48 about the same time. Not being all that strong, I do feel my strength is pretty balanced except for my pressing being weak.

The relative strength idea is really good too but then we would also want to redefine Simple and Sinister for different bodyweight.
I am thinking along these lines for Simple. 315 is 3 big wheels and close to the same percentage as in S&S. I was thinking about 300 but 315 is closer.

-S-
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

So if it helps, I used Wilks Calculator:
Weight (in kg) : 64
DL : 130
Wilk Points : 104,74
Standard at the DL time : Simple.

As a French, I am lost with lbs and kg ah ah!

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Steve W.

Level 6 Valued Member
I think the comparison is problematic for a couple of reasons. There is a lot of subjectivity in what constitutes a swing. How high? How crisp and powerful? A successful DL is a lot more clear cut to evaluate.

Then there is the issue of what constitutes achieving or owning the standard. For swings, how much of an effort qualifies? How much of a struggle can it be? How repeatable/recoverable must it be? For a DL, are we talking about a true peak max or a comfortable, repeatable on-demand "training," "sort of," or "hung over with the flu" max?

That being said, I look at Simple as something an average healthy person can definitely be expected to reach with a consistent effort over time. As GPP it represents a reasonable general baseline of entry level "strong enough" for a lot of other activities.

I am thinking along these lines for Simple. 315 is 3 big wheels and close to the same percentage as in S&S. I was thinking about 300 but 315 is closer.
To me, this seems way light, especially if compared to really owning 32 x 100 x 5:00. I think it undervalues Simple (or represents a much more looser interpretation of owning the standard than I would lean toward).

BW x 2 in the DL is often mentioned as an entry level milestone, but I think under 355lbs for a 160-175lb lifter represents a significantly lower bar than 405lbs for a 180-200lb lifter (and I would consider 405 for this BW range to be a reasonable "strong enough" standard).

I look at Sinister as a more specialized goal you really have to decide to focus on once you reach a baseline of "strong enough." So what would that look like for the DL? I'm not anywhere near Sinister with the KB and also not near whatever would be the DL equivalent, so I don't really have a personal frame of reference to judge.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Steve W., I think trying to compare objectively is going to fail here. FWIW, the Wilks Points for your heavier lifter and the numbers you gave rate about 5% higher. The Simple and Sinister goals don't figure bodyweight or age or anything else, just gender, so that is my proposed model here. A lighter lifter wanting to achieve a fixed goal will have to be stronger in relation to bodyweight.

Or eat more.

-S-
 

Steve W.

Level 6 Valued Member
@Steve W., I think trying to compare objectively is going to fail here. FWIW, the Wilks Points for your heavier lifter and the numbers you gave rate about 5% higher. The Simple and Sinister goals don't figure bodyweight or age or anything else, just gender, so that is my proposed model here. A lighter lifter wanting to achieve a fixed goal will have to be stronger in relation to bodyweight.

Or eat more.

-S-
Right. That was actually the point I was trying to make, but apparently I communicated the opposite. To try to restate more clearly. I would argue for a significantly higher fixed standard than 315 (for Simple). Something closer to 405 for all.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@Steve Freides
Stupid idea:
Create a thread in which we only ask for:
Age & Gender, Swing weight, GU weight and DL weight.

I know it will "exclude" those who cannot deadlift at least once to test their max...

That way, you get only "real" data.

From there, make an average by category. We recalculate this average each time you get more data to make your figures more precise.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

the hansenator

Level 6 Valued Member
For athletic performance, don't they usually say 2.0 or 2.5 percent bodyweight is a point of diminishing returns? Maybe that could be a simple standard with sinister being a step higher.
 
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