Kettlebell 50kg snatches bad for the elbow?

[Opiaswing]

Hello

I am wondering if in the long run, heavy snatches are bad for the elbow and or shoulder and whether I’d be better off focusing on double snatches with 32kg which will be less stress on the individual shoulder/elbow?

I can snatch 40kg relatively easily. My form could use work (any feedback appreciated) but wondering whether I should go any heavier or just I prove volume and do doubles?

Here is the 40kg snatches (this wasn’t my first snatch attempt so strength is there just not technique!)

 

[Tony Gracia]

I think that at a certain point it is beneficial to train with a selection of sizes for snatches. I do most of mine around 32kg, but will use 28, 36, and 40 regularly as well. Needless to say the reps per set, total volume, rest periods, and so on change depending on KB size and other variables. I don't think it is common to snatch "near limit" weights most of the time, probably better to have it be something you mix in on occasion.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

I am wondering if in the long run, heavy snatches are bad for the elbow and or shoulder

Nobody will be able to give a definite answer to that. Kettlebells are only around for ~20 years (yes hundreds of years, but useful empirical or scientific evidence only started when Pavel introduced them in the early 2000s).
On top of that most people never really snatched heavy (>32Kg) in the early years. Maybe as a test/feat, but not in a written routine like we do today with things like A+A.
So there is not enough evidence how heavy snatching affects the shoulders.
@Harald Motz and @Al Ciampa are guys who regularly have snatched heavier (40-50Kg) for more than two years and my guess is that right now both of them would tell you how beneficial heavy snatches are. It's still a possility though that they continue to do it for another 5-10 years and then change their mind, because the heavy snatching messed up their shoulders. Only time will give the answer to that.

Personally I don't think that snatching heavy will have a detrimental effect on shoulder and/or elbow as long as you have solid technique.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

I think @Tony Gracia is dead on. No matter what training modality you're talking about, going near-max all the time is going to do damage. Going near-max sometimes, and getting sufficient recovery, makes you stronger. Poison is in the dose.

 

[Glen]

I always wonder why people choose arbitrary numbers for these sorts of questions?

Surely a more appropriate question would be - would regular use of 1RM or close to it as my training workload be appropriate?

50kg snatching might only equate to 70% of someone's max, very different if another person's max is 52kg for example.

As soon as you define a weight as heavy you've set yourself up to have that frame of mind when using it.

 

[Anna C]

I always wonder why people choose arbitrary numbers for these sorts of questions?

Surely a more appropriate question would be - would regular use of 1RM or close to it as my training workload be appropriate?

50kg snatching might only equate to 70% of someone's max, very different if another person's max is 52kg for example.

As soon as you define a weight as heavy you've set yourself up to have that frame of mind when using it.

+1,000 to this.

Doing any work that you're not prepared to do through intelligent training and progression has the potential to cause problems.

But on the flip side, it's amazing what we can work up to if we train intelligently and consistently. There is virtually no ceiling, and no given weight for an activity that can be defined as problematic if one is properly prepared.

 

[Timmer C]

+1,000 to this.

Doing any work that you're not prepared to do through intelligent training and progression has the potential to cause problems.

In support of what you are saying, I think a 1RM should never be defined as the heaviest weight one has gotten away with for one rep but the heaviest weight one can do safely and with perfect form for one rep. The latter definition can lead forward; the former definition can lead to injury and burn-out. But people often choose the path of injury due to ego.

 

[Oscar]

Here is the 40kg snatches (this wasn’t my first snatch attempt so strength is there just not technique!)

Can't answer your question, but those snatches need some practice to me. You are banging your forearm, and doing that with a 40 kg isn't a good idea. Not because of the banging itself, but because when you bang your forearm you are receiving the bell with an unstable shoulder. Practice a bit with 24 and work your way up, that's what I would do. If you need to use heavier weight, do some swings.

 

[Anna C]

In support of what you are saying, I think a 1RM should never be defined as the heaviest weight one has gotten away with for one rep but the heaviest weight one can do safely and with perfect form for one rep. The latter definition can lead forward; the former definition can lead to injury and burn-out. But people often choose the path of injury due to ego.

I partly agree and partly disagree. Let's take a competitive powerlifter. If they're at their best and have trained and peaked well, they'll do a new PR 1RM in the competition. Are they prepared? Yes. Will it be perfect form? Probably not. But that's OK. If they can complete it to the standards and get white lights, it's all good. Now, should they do that in training? Usually not, as you're saying. Training >90% should be rare. It's usually the newbies and inconsistent lifters who make those mistakes... And they are not prepared.

 

[Harald Motz]

@Harald Motz and @Al Ciampa are guys who regularly have snatched heavier (40-50Kg) for more than two years and my guess is that right now both of them would tell you how beneficial heavy snatches are. It's still a possility though that they continue to do it for another 5-10 years and then change their mind, because the heavy snatching messed up their shoulders. Only time will give the answer to that.

I am now in my fifth year of heavy A+A snatching and I only can tell how beneficial they are. I possibly continue doing it for another 5-10 years and would change my mind only when heavy snatching should be messing up my shoulder. But then I woukd be to proud to admit it. ?

Joking aside i firmly believe that heavy A+A snatching with great technique really builds up the shoulder, especially when one focuses on taming the arc on the negative and ending into a strong unrushed lockout with opened/extended t-spine abd bell a bit behind.

I am wondering if in the long run, heavy snatches are bad for the elbow and or shoulder and whether I’d be better off focusing on double snatches with 32kg which will be less stress on the individual shoulder/elbow?

personally I would advise when you want to build up to heavy snatches use hardstyle technique, no corkscrewing.

Couple of weeks ago I just tried a few singles with an 52kg bell to see if I can snatch it. The usual default reaction with a heavier bell, uncertainty, not enough power... is the corkscrew thing as the bell can stay lower as compared to the hardstyle flip, needing less power. After a few reps I sensed on my weaker left elbow a slight pain. On the right I was pretty hardstyle. I took a video and saw that the corkscrewing of the bell litterally screwed my elbow into really ugly hyperextension. Additionally corkscrewing with heavy bells can lead to wobbly lockouts which is no good also.

And yes surely there are girevoy freaks out there who can corkscrew insanely heavy bells for reps. Often their name is Denisov or Fedorenko and they are dping their stuff for a few days.

 

[william bad butt]

@Opiaswing

I mentioned this in a previous post, but I'll repeat here...

I've been doing the A&A program for months now. Basically a bunch of sets of 5 reps. I can snatch a 40 kg bell with no major issues. It is hard, but not real hard, if you know what I mean. Doing g 1 set of 5 reps is not hard. But doing 20 repeats is hard. My guess is that my max is a 44kg. Unfortunately I dont own a 44kg. I do own a 48 kg bell but I haven't got the nerve, yet, to try snatching it. My guess is that if I tried to do a 1 rep snatch with the 48kg, I could probably get it up. But it would probably be ugly/sloppy and not a proper hard style snatch.

Even though I can snatch the 40kg just fine, I really like using the 32kg. It is just light enough that I can overspeed the bell on the negative, or drop. I get this stretch reflex in the hole that lights up posterior.

So right now I am training 2 days per week (with higher volume) with the 32. And 1 day per week (lower volume) with the 40.

The point of my story is that I think it is important to do both. Use a "heavy" bell and use a slightly lighter bell that allows you to generate a lot of "power".

Note: My 32 and 40 kg swings look/feel the same on the upswing. But on the way down the 40 mostly falls via gravity. I pull the 32 down, hard! If I pulled the 40 down as hard as I pull the 32, I could only do a couple reps before my grip would start fatiguing (I can suffer through this, but this adds a lot of stress on me over time and I think it even impacts my barbell training, cns fatigue). This is my theory at least.

Regards,

Eric

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

Just saw this yesterday and seems to have a bit of relevance here:

"One More Rep" Mentality is Bad for Longevity w/Pavel Tsatsouline | Joe Rogan

 

[Steve Freides]

I can snatch 40kg relatively easily. My form could use work (any feedback appreciated) but wondering whether I should go any heavier or just I prove volume and do doubles?

The kettlebell snatch at StrongFirst is a repetition lift. Your video shows a lack of control of the bell at the lockout and I wouldn't recommend you continue to train like that. If you want to snatch that weight, figure out how to get a crisp lockout and build strength in that position. I don't agree with "I can snatch 40kg relatively easily" - you have the grip strength and the hips and legs to get the bell to the proper height, but your lockout looks less controlled than it should in order to be safe and effective training. Perhaps some presses or pushpresses with that weight, perhaps some time spent walking with the bell in the lockout position.

-S-