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Kettlebell A+A for Ultra-running crosstraining

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jmwatson

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Hello SF crew,

I've been doing some research on the A+A methodology and have been interested in implementing it into my weekly training. My goal here is to train for ultra-running events.

First a little background, I'm coming from several years of Olympic/powerlifting style training and before that about a decade of functional/tactical style fitness. I previously have had the capacity to complete ultra-endurance events (completed 3 half-marathons and 2 marathons @ 280# last year) but I want to be faster. My current struggle is losing muscle mass while increasing my endurance output, ie. I can only run so far per week until I lose some weight. I have begun running regularly and wish to increase my Vo2 max, endurance, and overall base fitness in the endurance realm while keeping my running mileage consistent for a while. I do cycle but overall trying to reduce my leg mass tons of cycling isn't the best. Anyone have input on if my goal is this possible using the training outlined in the A+A? Thanks in advance.
 
First off welcome to SF

Kudos for doing half and full marathons. Good stuff… (not really ultras, but a good start in that direction)
Loosing muscle mass (or fat) is as you are probably already aware is a campaign best waged in the kitchen.
A+A along with your running is as good a place as any to work towards your goals. However actually increasing your VO2max by any appreciable amount is unlikely to happen unless you are quite young, or highly detrained, or can change your parents somehow.

You might want to check out some of the posts by @Coyote who is a current ultra-runner

Again, welcome…
 
Edit*
I previously have had the capacity to complete ultra-endurance events (completed 3 half-marathons and 2 marathons @ 280# last year) but I want to be faster.

Edit*
I didn't mean to classify marathon-distance events as "ultra" endurance in my examples, I do understand the difference so my apologies. However, I have completed two ~38mi events mostly fast shuffling so I'd like to get back that level of endurance or better. I was using the shorter running events to show my progress towards the end goal. Cheers.
 
Most people become a faster runner by doing one simple thing.

Run more.

I am definitely no expert on running fast, though. It was easy to run fast when I was young, but I am definitely not young, either.
 
Most people become a faster runner by doing one simple thing.

Run more.

I am definitely no expert on running fast, though. It was easy to run fast when I was young, but I am definitely not young, either.

I understand that sport-specific training is the best to improve overall at that sport. My issue is that I'm relatively heavy for my size, 6'2.5" ~250-5# (down from 280# last Aug), and honestly, more running right now is only going to injure me. I'm looking for an alternative that I can use on the cross-training days that will allow me to train "like" sport-specific without the worry of injury from overuse but also won't keep bulk or add to it. If that makes sense. Cheers.
 
My experience is as a cyclist and swings and snatches definitely improve your base fitness, but there isn’t a 100% carryover to cycling. The biggest benefit is that I’m ready to hit the trails or do intervals sooner and stronger than when I solely ride through the off season. I imagine it’s similar for running.
 
Anyone have input on if my goal is this possible using the training outlined in the A+A? Thanks in advance.
I think that A+A could be a great addition in line with your goals. Also from a health and "functional strength" perspective. it might also help with running performance, but I am not a dedicated runner. But A+A focuses on the mitochondria of the fast-twitch fibers and should therefore help with building your enginge.

BTW: You could also try a version of Q&D 044 with Swings or Snatches an only use 5/4 as a rep scheme. (From the book Quick and the Dead, which is designed for building mitochondria in the fast fibers.)

If you are new to KB training I would advise to buy the StrongFirst Kettlebell course on BJJ Fanatics (and wait for a good coupon / special deal, usually around the holidays or other marked days). It has great instruction and plans. My pick would be the swing and getup plan, focusing on the swings and keeping the getups for general resilience and "core stability". It is a 3-day per week plan, but you could just aswell do it 2x per week. But the LCCJ plan is great, too and is more minimalist.

And you are mentioning VO2 max. Maybe then Training for the Uphill Athelete would be good read for you, which goes into the detail of training for long endurance events (albeit for mountain races) and warns against focusing on VO2 max.

And/or listen to some podcasts with Inigo San Millan. He is the endurance coach of Tadej Pogacar (youngest Tour de France winner in the past 90 years or so) and a physiology professor. He says that he hasn't measured VO2 max for years as it is only poorly correlated to performance. He focuses on building the fat-metabolism (Zone 2 work) and the glycolytic system (Zone 4 work). And he is a proponent of eating enough carbs, also for ultra runners. Here he talks about breathing as a marker for the zones - whereas he usually would measure lactacte accumulation, etc.
 
I'm assuming 280 is a reference to you weighing 280lb. I don't know what that is in oppressive units.

With you being so heavy any form of cross training to build up your aerobic capacity and create a caloric deficit is great.

I wouldn't discount cycling as an alternative, it'll increase your lactic threshold in advance of doing hill work.

Elliptical is another great option too.

A&A snatches are ideal. Yet another tool to use to increase conditioning without impact stress.

I would limit your runs to 30min in length until you are lighter and work on a good mid/fore foot strike.
 
Hello,

Loosing muscle mass (or fat) is a concern, I'd start, as mentioned, in the kitchen. You can start eating in a slight calorie deficit (250-350) less than your maintenance intake. It will make you lose weight very progressively.

As far as training goes, if you can not run, there are some options:
- Motion that relates to running, such as rucking with a light weight. Below is an interesting article about the topic:
Rucking: What It Is and How to Do It | StrongFirst If you go very progressively, there is no reason to get injured in the process
- Otherwise, to build up the aerobic capacity, swimming is non impact cardio. So is rowing.

Regarding protocol, I'd keep things simple:
- 1 long session (60-90+ minutes) (Z1, Z2)
- 1 moderate session (45 minutes) (Z1, Z2)
- 1 interval session
- 1 sprint / all out session (supramaximal)

By no means I mean A+A with bell is not appropriate. What I mean is that is does not relate directly to what you'll do. It does not build technique or time on your feet.

If none of the above is possible, then obvisouly, A+A will be an excellent choice to build some cardiac capacity, while you'll drop weight in the kitchen. Once you'll be able to run again, then a regular running protocol will get the job done.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I’m glad that @Bauer brought up Tadej Pogacar because it also ties into the OP’s comment and concern about cycling and leg mass.
While it’s true that cycling sprinters and track racers tend to have massive legs, climbing specialists and GC riders tend not to.
 
Hello,

A lot of studies tend to say that heavy squat training tend to increase running performance. Below is one of them:

In Training for the Uphill Athlete, there is a portion of the book dedicated to assistance training, to increase running performance. It also helps for rucking.

Otherwise, unstructured approach seems to also work, as long as there is an endurance focus 2-3x a week, simultaneously with 2-3 strength sessions (at least for injury prevention). Here is the article: Quarantine Fitness | StrongFirst

In the article below, "Victor" talks about his routine. We can read that he is still able to perform relatively well, with consistency, with very low mileage. This way of training may not lead to the 1st place on the podium, but it seems to avoid too much suffering.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

I could see this being a little better option than A&A. A&A could work pretty decent but this is specifically designed for endurance. The only thing I would do is change it to a three day a week program and extend it out so as not to over burden the hips, hamstrings and glutes with running and swings.
 

Depends on the individual, but I haven't had great luck with loaded walks as a substitute for running. I can throw 60-75lb in a pack and I still need to do a silly parade-ground strut or an airborn shuffle to get my HR up around 130 on the flat, which beats the hell out of my feet and lower legs to boot. And on a hill steeper than 5% or so I can get my heart rate into training zones at a brisk walk without weight. So why carry weight at all? Unless I'm trying to prepare specifically to carry weight, in which case fair enough.

I do like hiking hill repeats as a low-impact outdoor task-specific substitute for running. No need to add weight, although depending on location and weather you may want an extra layer, some fluids, etc. Heart rate will probably drop out of training zones on the walk back down, but I've been told not to worry about it, you're getting specific muscular training for the downhills. Can get a bit boring, but I'd say it beats an incline treadmill or a stairmaster or step-ups, which are also potential low-impact alternatives to running.
 
Hello,

To add to @psmith 's excellent post, even Dan John advocates for hill sprints. They are unlikely to get you injured while building great "conditioning".

It may be possible to follow an A+A template using hill sprints (the article mentions regular sprints though) and / or kb swings:

Below is another protocol, but maybe more prone to injury due to the "high rep" burpees:

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@here all of this info is great! Thank you. I will continue to do my research and progress both in the kitchen and on the trails. I also won't be so afraid of the bike, but I do want to try and induce muscle loss in my thighs, I measure them the other day and they are ~31inches in circumference, pretty big. I had a running specialist here in MT assess my stride and my biomechanics are pretty good for a moderate level runner, aside from some imbalances in one ankle that I had surgery on years ago. I appreciate everyone's feedback and input. I'm going to "run" with some of the research put forth and see what I can come up with in 6-8 months of progress. I'll let you know how it goes!
 
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I recently had some basal cell carcinomas removed. They were no big deal, but one was on my sternum, and had been there for awhile. So the result is that I have a big incision (about 7" long) stitched up on my chest.
This would be no big deal, except my wife heard the doctor tell me no running or weights over 15lb for 4 weeks.
So.....I have been trying out Heavy Hands. It's goofy,and awkward and i would never do it in the daylight, and since I have not read the book (it's bringing $60+used), I know I am not doing it correctly. What I am doing is marching around at 4am pumping some 2.5lb or 5lb weights to various levels for 30 minutes or so.
While my heart rate never gets above 100, it does feel like I have done something after I am finished. I do not know if I am gaining any fitness, but maybe I will not loose a lot.
Anyway, you might Google Heavy Hands training, or look for it here on the forum. It has been discussed.
 
@jmwatson, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

My current struggle is losing muscle mass while increasing my endurance output,

The word "while" troubles me here. My recommendations:

Give up on improving your endurance output _while_ getting smaller. Walk instead of running. Follow a strength training regimen and manage the variables correctly - short sets, long rests, high frequency, moderate overall volume - to get stronger without adding muscle. And look to your diet to help you lose size. Pick _a_ goal, work towards it, achieve it, and then pick another goal. Changing body composition is a big goal.

-S-
 
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