A+A snatches

CoreyW

Double-Digit Post Count
I've tried searching for more info on the A+A protocol with snatches, but can't seem to find anything. Or rather I can't use the search function correctly. Could someone point me in the right direction, thanks.
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

@CoreyW
If memory serves, there is not a specific thread about AA protocol for snatches. However, you can find plenty of "general" AA threads. Here are some examples:

Are we over thinking antiglycolic training?
HIT failed me, looking for something else
Anti Glycolytic Training for Combat Sports
A+A and Strength block training
Article: The Fallacy of VO2Max
High Intensity Aerobic Training Can Reverse The Aging Process

What are you after ?

I think @Harald Motz uses / used AA protocol with snatches with excellent result. That is why, if he minds, I tagged him.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
in a nutshell A+A snatches are done with a (relatively) heavy kettlebell for up to five reps for many repeats, with plenty of rest between them to be almost fully recovered, to begin the next one strong and end it strong also. The concept/principal is simple: Building up high quality heavy volume without chasing fatigue.

Alactic Snatches (ballistics lasting around 10sec)+Aerobic recovery:

there are some essential points, though:
- really solid snatch technique to begin with and willingness to work on quality in every session, every repeat, every rep aiming for mastering the move
- it is not the aim, to reduce rest periods over time but rather to let it happen over time
- using a hr-monitor is very helpful, as a means to get a feel, what the body and breathing sensations feel like, as one is ready again, not only from repeat to repeat, but from session to session also, as fatigue accumulates with heavy volume work
- it is more of an aim over time then, to rely by feel to know when ready again
- it may be an aim also, to help recovery for instance nose breathing only while resting, shaking the limbs out a bit, walking around, breath counting...
- there should be almost no mental pushing involved
- it is not about snatching the heaviest bell possible, so a bell for five reps may be a bell one can snatch around 8-10 strongly
- hand care is very important, keeping callous short and soft using lotion when needed
- one should build up to this kind of volume work

The A+A protocols are the brain-experience-child of @aciampa, and were developed as a means to build endurance as a substitute to conventional endurance training. I am going with A+A for 20 months now. I started with 2 heavy swing (50kg) protocols for repeats of five. Then I did a snatch protocol with 32kg, then another introducing 36kg after that another introducing 40kg. Each protocol was 6 weeks with waviness in volume.

After the first protocol I increased my SSST 24kg up to 200reps more than 10% and 10min run test also without snatching and running then. After the second protocol the numbers stayed but with significant lower average hr. Interesting for me was a drop in resting hr after the swing protocols from around 52 to about 45.

Another aspect, (I start to digress) was the proper introduction of aerobic training by Al Ciampa. I "gained" almost 10 kilos of weightloss of not muscle only in a 6 month time frame, while conserving a good amount of strength, maybe loosing a bit absolutely, but overall relatively increasing. Considering the heavy volume I have developed no aches or pains along the way.

This year I am freestyling my A+A work, using swings and currently mostly snatches, and am into aerobic base training again. A+A+Aerobic's is a long term approach with astonishing benefits, it is a great Philosophy, and there is much to philosophy about.
 
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Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
What @Harald Motz said; he may understand it better than me. If I ever write this book, I will detail all the subtle points... now several years into this "experiment", I've come to believe that this is a philosophy that is a very long term approach. You just can't look at it in 6 week or even several month blocks--years is more appropriate... and, it keeps providing results.

Boredom, might be the largest complaint.
 

Matts

More than 300 posts
this is a philosophy that is a very long term approach
@aciampa This characterization jives with something I've been thinking about recently- strenghth/fitness/athletics/whatever as a "way of life," as opposed to a shiny new toy, object of compulsion, fad, something to show off with, or immediate gratification item. I've been trying to understand the fascination with the latest "program" that will give "x, y, and z" in weeks. Approaching physical activity as a part of a good life, the more years it takes the better!
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

@Harald Motz
Once you get the weight you want to work with, what is (on average) the snatch volume per session ? Or simply, do you stop when tired ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
thinking about recently- strenghth/fitness/athletics/whatever as a "way of life," as opposed to a shiny new toy, object of compulsion, fad, something to show off with, or immediate gratification item.
I like to muse about it too. There may be a hidden joy to be not 20, heck 30 anymore, but that is no prevention to act non-sensible at least in some aspects. There is no substitution for experienced experience. Regarding training I had quite some thanks to great teachings of some great guys from SF, and here on the forum.
- Doing the same repeatedly, with some moderation ....damn s&s works. An unrushed get up with a beast I can do anytime, no problem.
- I applied GTG to bottom up stuff. When I met @Pavel Macek he said:"GTG is the best". I can't deny it.
- My learning and doing on A+A its sometimes hard to describe in words, almost every time I am through my repeats I only think:"damn this is some crazy s..." in all my strength training I definitely have my rest now. Rest does not make weak, I know through experience.
- everything gets really round for me with some training on an aerobic base. Many strength enthusiasts warn against it. But yes, it can make leaner but that does not mean weaker in any way.
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Once you get the weight you want to work with, what is (on average) the snatch volume per session ? Or simply, do you stop when tired ?
in the last seven days I used 40kg five reps per repeat:
07/22 : 20repeats
07/18 : 18repeats
07/25 : 22repeats
07/27 : 20repeats

that was the week. next week may look different, maybe two sessions, maybe I do swings, or use 32kg...who knows, when even I do not yet?

I stop my sessions mostly, when my hands "speak" to me, Summertimes when it is warm and humid is not the most pleasant time of year to do volumes of ballistics. I use chalk, and the handle gets with the mix of humid, sweaty and chalk a kind of blunt friction, almost no gliding. My skin sends me messages, I hear on, and they tell me If I should be snatching a day or two or three later.

autumn, winter early spring with clear air volume work goes better.
 

Matts

More than 300 posts
There is no substitution for experienced experience.
This is the truth. Studies, theories, etc. have a place for academicians, researchers, coaches, etc. who know how to use them for their field, but successful athletes always gravitate towards experience. When a group of athletes work out for awhile, and know each others skills well, and all of a sudden one gets a little faster or stronger than expected, all the others want to know what they did differently and they'll follow that over their own coaches advice every time. Experience gained over long time and passed along is always the best teacher.
 

jabaljake

Double-Digit Post Count
@Harald Motz

So you're doing A+A roughly 4 x per week?

Do you build in your other strength training around that?

I think I've seen you doing zercher squats. With the heavy A+A at 4x per week, plus strength training for your legs, plus the aerobic base, do your legs feel tired? Or are you able to keep them fresh?
 

jabaljake

Double-Digit Post Count
My other strength work I keep around 10 total reps about 4-6 times a week.
Just to clarify. This is 10 total reps per exercise?

Or ten total reps?

Because this is impressive that such strength gains can be got from doing just ten reps almost every day. Even PTTP has us on 20 total reps (with the press included), which I thought was pretty minimalistic.
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
@jabaljake : currently I do (Steinborn) back squats or Zercher lifts. Its around 10 reps give or take a few per exercise, as they are big lifts.
Lately I am doing some Pendlay rows 15-25 total reps...and a bit of variety.
2-5 aerobic base training sessions of around an hour give or take some.
 

CoreyW

Double-Digit Post Count
I've been doing snatches with a 20kg and have been feeling great.

@Harald Motz just wondering if you feel like superman snatching a 40kg, because I'm feeling pretty damn good just using a 20kg.
 
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Snowman

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
just wondering if you feel like superman snatching a 40kg, because I'm feeling pretty damn good just using a 20kg.
Not that I'm anywhere near where @Harald Motz is, but I just bumped up the weight in my A+A practice and it's pretty damn satisfying. After a few months of sets of 8 reps, I increased the weight, dropped the reps per set down to 4, and am supplementing the snatches with two-handed swings (sets of 10) until my snatch gets smoother at the new weight. There's something pretty neat about grabbing a 'bell that's in the "heavy" category in your brain, and just sending floating over your head...
 

Timothy Friel

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I started my A+A snatch training back in April after the TSC. Up until recently it was all I did with the exception of lsd runs and rucks. At first I was snatching a 24kg for all my sessions. I now use a 32kg and just started mixing in a 40kg. I even completed one session of 58 repeats with a 32 and surprised myself. I never thought of snatching a 32 and to complete 290 lifts in a session amazed me.
 

MikeTheBear

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I know that the A+A protocol is proprietary. So far, the only peak at A+A that's come out into the world is this article by Craig Marker.

The Hybrid Power Conditioning Program

Would the protocol outlined in the article work for snatches, doing 5 right + 5 left? I ask only because snatches take longer to complete than swings, at least for me, and I realize the alactic portion needs to be in the 10 second range to remain "alactic."
 
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