Kettlebell A+A snatches

[CoreyW]

I was snatching with the 20kg a while back, and I think the 16kg would be to light. I'll use the 20kg and work on building volume.

 

[Snowman]

Well put @Anna C. I may steal that analogy at some point .

Yes and that depends on how much muscle fiber you have and how much you have wired up to be available. Seems to me both those factors would figure in???

Can't find it now but awhile ago there was a thread or poll discussing %bodyweight people were training A+A with. I would think that would be a relevant number in determining what is "heavy" for a person?

I can't remember the specifics anymore, but at one point we looked at all the guys who had been A+A snatching for a while (we didn't have enough of a female pool to get much data ). Most people are getting most of their volume from 'bells in the neighborhood of 35-50% bodyweight. Not surprisingly, the smaller guys used heavier weights relative to bodyweight, and the bigger buys used objectively heavier weights. That said, you can still use an A+A approach to develop skill at a lighter weight. Doing many small sets while staying fresh and focused is a great way to build skill, you just can't quite expect to reap all the benefits of heavy snatches.

Worth noting, for the last week or so I've left a 'bell at my BJJ gym that's "too light" to do "real" A+A training. I never use it anymore, so why keep it at home? Before I train I'll hit 8-10 sets of snatches with that little sucker; it helps me warm up and adds a little extra snatch volume to the weekly total. The key, in order for those light reps to mean anything, is that I have to overspeed the crap out of those snatches. If I wasn't yet confident snatching a heavier 'bell, I would do fast snatches with a light 'bell (technique permitting).

 

[CoreyW]

I have a 16,20,24 and a 32. I'll work on building skill and volume with the 20 for now. 35% of my weight would be 82.25lbs lol. Snatching the 32 isn't possible right now. Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it.

 

[Oscar]

I have a 16,20,24 and a 32. I'll work on building skill and volume with the 20 for now. 35% of my weight would be 82.25lbs lol. Snatching the 32 isn't possible right now. Thanks for all the input guy I really appreciate it.

I dont know if using the 20 is A+A in the strictest sense, but it's still a damn good practice. Its enjoyable, good snatch practice, aerobic and strength training, if it's the weight that you can use.

I did it with 20, then 24 and then 28. Worked very well.

 

[Boosh32]

The carpenter would likely say they have no idea what any of it is about... and why don't these people pick up some real tools and do some real work?!

I worked at major US military test range and there was a sign over the range control room entrance that read "One test is worth more than a thousand expert opinions."

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

I can't remember the specifics anymore, but at one point we looked at all the guys who had been A+A snatching for a while (we didn't have enough of a female pool to get much data ). Most people are getting most of their volume from 'bells in the neighborhood of 35-50% bodyweight. Not surprisingly, the smaller guys used heavier weights relative to bodyweight, and the bigger buys used objectively heavier weights.

Thank you! Was looking for that info.... And using your info and searching my HD found this though I don't know what thread I copied from:

Al Ciampa (for A+A snatches X sets of 5): I am about 235 lbs; I use mostly the 40kg (37% bw) and 36 (34% bw); sometimes the 32 (30% bw); and less the 44 (41% bw) and 48 (45% bw).

Based on the answers, I generated a simple little graph. The Y axis is "% bodyweght of average A+A snatch weight," and it tops out at 50%.

Seems like a pretty wide spread, which is to be expected given the small sample size. Obviously there are plenty of inconsistencies such as experience, strength, leanness, etc. Still kind of interesting. The average, for what it's worth, is 39%. In case people are wondering, I smoothed the numbers out a bit, for instance I input 38K for Al (the average of his two working weights), and 28K for myself (the weight I really should be working with).
​

 

[Stefan Hedborg]

Hello!

I’ve been playing around with kettlebells for apx. one year.

The last 8 weeks I’ve been doing Q&D (10 rep) program, swings (32kg 1H) + pushups. Feeling great. I’ve been snatching 24 kg inconsistently before. Last week I wanted to try to snatch 32 kg, and completed 50 reps with ease (sets of 5)... Super excited! I’ve also been learning TGU for one month, and I now master 28 kg. Building some TGU volume before moving onto 32kg.

I’m interested in moving on to a snatch program. What is best, an A+A style program (5rep heavy snatches with good rest between, building up volume over time) OR to continue with Q&D and switch to the snatch program in the book?

All the best
/ Stefan H

 

[Steve Freides]

@Stefan Hedborg, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

-S-

 

[J Cox]

Hello!

I’ve been playing around with kettlebells for apx. one year.

The last 8 weeks I’ve been doing Q&D (10 rep) program, swings (32kg 1H) + pushups. Feeling great. I’ve been snatching 24 kg inconsistently before. Last week I wanted to try to snatch 32 kg, and completed 50 reps with ease (sets of 5)... Super excited! I’ve also been learning TGU for one month, and I now master 28 kg. Building some TGU volume before moving onto 32kg.

I’m interested in moving on to a snatch program. What is best, an A+A style program (5rep heavy snatches with good rest between, building up volume over time) OR to continue with Q&D and switch to the snatch program in the book?

All the best
/ Stefan H

Stefan, do you have any goals in mind? If you are unsure, you can try them both. That's simply what I would do if I wasn't sure of my goals. Somebody better qualified than me can answer if they know your goals.

 

[Stefan Hedborg]

Stefan, do you have any goals in mind? If you are unsure, you can try them both. That's simply what I would do if I wasn't sure of my goals. Somebody better qualified than me can answer if they know your goals.

I want to get the benefits of snatching as I've been swinging for a while.

As I'm 8 weeks into Q&D I decided I'll stick with the program for at least 12 weeks.
I'll switch to Q&D snatches (044 protocol) for a month. Then I'll switch to A+A and heavier snatches.

 

[Xene]

I want to get the benefits of snatching as I've been swinging for a while.

As I'm 8 weeks into Q&D I decided I'll stick with the program for at least 12 weeks.
I'll switch to Q&D snatches (044 protocol) for a month. Then I'll switch to A+A and heavier snatches.

You could rotate between 044 with lighter weight and heavy A+A snatches every 6 weeks as suggested in the book. That's what I am currently doing. While on plan 044 it's still possible to substitute one or two sessions from time to time with 033 swings/push ups to hit those movements again.

 

[Stefan Hedborg]

You could rotate between 044 with lighter weight and heavy A+A snatches every 6 weeks as suggested in the book. That's what I am currently doing. While on plan 044 it's still possible to substitute one or two sessions from time to time with 033 swings/push ups to hit those movements again.

Thanks!
I really want give Q&D a fair chance (12 weeks). So now I'll do 044 instead of 033 during my last 4 weeks. Then switch to 6 weeks heavy A+A snatches, then back to 6 weeks Q&D etc etc.

I really had great results from doing 033!
- Starting TGU as a complementary practice 4 weeks ago on 24kg. I'm now doing 32 kg fairly easy.
- Also tried snatching 32kg for 5x5 (50 reps) and happy for that.
- My 1H swings in 033 (32kg) are 2 sec faster than in the beginning of the program.

Question. on 044, shall I go to lets say 24 or 28 kg for power/speed snatches?

 

[Mat Roberts]

in a nutshell A+A snatches are done with a (relatively) heavy kettlebell for up to five reps for many repeats, with plenty of rest between them to be almost fully recovered, to begin the next one strong and end it strong also. The concept/principal is simple: Building up high quality heavy volume without chasing fatigue.

Alactic Snatches (ballistics lasting around 10sec)+Aerobic recovery:

there are some essential points, though:
- really solid snatch technique to begin with and willingness to work on quality in every session, every repeat, every rep aiming for mastering the move
- it is not the aim, to reduce rest periods over time but rather to let it happen over time
- using a hr-monitor is very helpful, as a means to get a feel, what the body and breathing sensations feel like, as one is ready again, not only from repeat to repeat, but from session to session also, as fatigue accumulates with heavy volume work
- it is more of an aim over time then, to rely by feel to know when ready again
- it may be an aim also, to help recovery for instance nose breathing only while resting, shaking the limbs out a bit, walking around, breath counting...
- there should be almost no mental pushing involved
- it is not about snatching the heaviest bell possible, so a bell for five reps may be a bell one can snatch around 8-10 strongly
- hand care is very important, keeping callous short and soft using lotion when needed
- one should build up to this kind of volume work

The A+A protocols are the brain-experience-child of @aciampa, and were developed as a means to build endurance as a substitute to conventional endurance training. I am going with A+A for 20 months now. I started with 2 heavy swing (50kg) protocols for repeats of five. Then I did a snatch protocol with 32kg, then another introducing 36kg after that another introducing 40kg. Each protocol was 6 weeks with waviness in volume.

After the first protocol I increased my SSST 24kg up to 200reps more than 10% and 10min run test also without snatching and running then. After the second protocol the numbers stayed but with significant lower average hr. Interesting for me was a drop in resting hr after the swing protocols from around 52 to about 45.

Another aspect, (I start to digress) was the proper introduction of aerobic training by Al Ciampa. I "gained" almost 10 kilos of weightloss of not muscle only in a 6 month time frame, while conserving a good amount of strength, maybe loosing a bit absolutely, but overall relatively increasing. Considering the heavy volume I have developed no aches or pains along the way.

This year I am freestyling my A+A work, using swings and currently mostly snatches, and am into aerobic base training again. A+A+Aerobic's is a long term approach with astonishing benefits, it is a great Philosophy, and there is much to philosophy about.

HI looking at A+A with snatches can you break downs sets reps/ days per week and rest.

Maybe most program is better has trying to find an example to better understand program

Thanks
Mat

 

[KBrower]

My first post. Just a quick one to say thank you for all this knowledge. Specifically on this thread as I have just finished my first 12 weeks of Q&D and read in the book about alternating this every 6 weeks with A&A but didn’t know what A&A was. But now I do. So will be implementing this, building up gradually in the coming days and weeks.

The future is exciting, and snatchy.

 

[Steve Freides]

@KBrower, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

-S-

 

[Mike Torres]

Question. on 044, shall I go to lets say 24 or 28 kg for power/speed snatches?

That depends on how powerful you are! I would do the accelerometer test or the long sprint test from the book to determine which bell to use. I found with the accelerometer test that I was going too light (by a lot - 16kg). The key is to find the bell that you can generate the most power with, so the product of mass times acceleration. Go too light, it will move fast but you won't generate enough force. Go too heavy, you will generate more force, but the bell will move too slowly. You need to find the goldilocks bell.