A+A snatches

NoahMarek

More than 500 posts
@Shawn90 Currently, I am doing ROP by the book and would recommend the same to you instead of adding snatches. Either focus on a high volume press program like ROP or focus on an A+A snatch protocol. Combining both high volume snatching with high volume pressing is hard to recover from.
 
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NoahMarek

More than 500 posts
I know we (A+A) don't get (nor ask for) a lot of exposure in the Forum at large, but @Neal Sivula is likely the "Snatching-est" guy here, with a consistency and dependability that you could set a watch to. I strive to model my work ethic and humility after his own.
"Snatching-est guy here" What do you mean by that @Miguel . Also question for either Harald, Miguel, or Al. Why is there this huge focus on solely the snatch? I understand it has many benefits but why not switch focuses every once in a while to improve different skills? I think I heard Al say that currently, all he does is snatch for resistance training. (Obviously that does not represent his general training, it is just an observation)

So is A+A snatching almost treated like the resistance training equivalent of runnng to build the aerobic base building? I am having a hard time putting all this in to words but I guess my ultimate question is this: Why is there such a large singular focus on increasing the snatch weights/ volume? For simplicity's sake?
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Why is there this huge focus on solely the snatch?
Massive return on your investment.

I understand it has many benefits but why not switch focuses every once in a while to improve different skills?
Example?

I think I heard Al say that currently, all he does is snatch for resistance training.
This is mostly true.

So is A+A snatching almost treated like the resistance training equivalent of runnng to build the aerobic base building?
This is a good analogy. Snatches seem to work with the A+A format better than the rest.

Why is there such a large singular focus on increasing the snatch weights/ volume? For simplicity's sake?
Load for the strength and motor skill returns; volume for the endurance/work capacity returns. And, yeah... it's freakin' simple. I like simple.
 

Miguel

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Snatches as "the" strength tool... conditioning follows from volume. I've given up on swings except as a training tool for snatches, and/or a light/less day. There's just no comparison between swings and snatches.
As a student of Mr. Ciampa's for over a year, I can attest to having tried "it all" alongside A+A snatches. I even tried ROP in conjunction with. I can tell you, and this time from experience, all you need are the snatches. That single move will fill strength gaps like no other. My personally preferred accompaniments were the "approved" Pull ups, crawling, and low volume but high load GU or two per day. That's it for the resistance piece. While by no means am I am strong guy, I am the strongest "me" I've ever been.

Don't bastardize ROP... once you have pressing technique solidified, use A+A snatches and supplement them with minimal pressing. Heavy snatches will increase or at least maintain your press (again, assuming solid pressing technique).
I happily confirm this, and was told as much by Mr. Ciampa when I set out to press AND snatch. Yes, he was right all along

"Snatching-est guy here" What do you mean by that @Miguel .
Mr. Sivula snatches with a regularity and consistency that puts worker ants to shame.

Why is there this huge focus on solely the snatch?
Who doesn't like simple? =]
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Why is there this huge focus on solely the snatch?
The snatch is a pull. A heavy snatch is a big pull. Doing this repeatedly demands good amount of skill and strength. One has to build up to it.

The snatch builds strong and powerfull legs along with strong and supple backside, a stable trunk. It gives incredible looking arms and decent grip. Skin gets its beating, sometimes no way around it.

Its incredible for the shoulder which is embedded between the lat and trap.

Catching the weight on an extended arm totally improved my lockout and upper back mobility. It develops posture.

It demands and builds heart, lungs and focus.

Repeats for five, changing between left and right and repeated for weeks and months the body can gather a lot of work and thrive on it, when recovery is alright between repeats and sessions.
 

DavThew

More than 500 posts
My personally preferred accompaniments were the "approved" Pull ups, crawling, and low volume but high load GU or two per day.
Interesting! I am guessing these are moves that didn't impede your ability to snatch. I'm somewhat suprised to see pullups there as they might tire your grip out. I guess when you are snatching heavy weights at a high volume not much can tire your grip anymore.
 

Timothy Friel

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Interesting! I am guessing these are moves that didn't impede your ability to snatch. I'm somewhat suprised to see pullups there as they might tire your grip out. I guess when you are snatching heavy weights at a high volume not much can tire your grip anymore.
I work Pullups in after every 2 repeats. I keep the reps low around 3-5 a set. I 've had no grip issues so far.
 

Unkle Mike

Double-Digit Post Count
Hi All,

I have a very simple mind, so the possibility of simplifying, and getting the "most bang for the buck", is fascinating.
I'm doing C&P ladders followed by one hand swings, heavy, moderate and light days, with 2 variety days of one hand swings.
How would I program the A + A snatches to totally replace the above?
How often and when should I clean and press (if at all)?
How often and when should I do get ups (if at all)?
How often and when can I do goblet squats?

Goal - maintain and improve general health, strength, and conditioning.

I'm not a competitive athlete, and I think the above exercises will meet my needs.

Regards,

Uncle Mike
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
How would I program the A + A snatches to totally replace the above?
You could...build competence and convidence with the snatch first. A good snatch is a skill. You could start practicing them on variety days. Low reps for a few repeats. Increase volume slowly over time.

Or you could ditch your c&p laders and do some snatch laders.

You should not just add snatches, cut something out of your current routine. Shift some attention to it.

Have your goblets as warm up, and do get ups on variety days.

Snatches, get ups, goblets great combo.
 

Unkle Mike

Double-Digit Post Count
Thank You,
Will this work:
day 1 - heavy snatches + a few sets of goblet squats
day 2 - variety - 200 1 hand swings + a few get ups
day 3 - snatches 80 % of heavy day + a few sets of goblet squats
day 4 - variety - 200 1 hand swings + a few get ups
day 5 - snatches 60% of heavy day + a few sets of goblet squats
2 days off every week to do whatever.
Regards,
Uncle Mike
 

Maine-ah KB

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@Unkle Mike looks good to me (not a professional, just like learning and figuring out what's effective)
How long have you been using kettlebell? In etk Pavel wrote that in the first year of kettlebell training in general shoulders can't take snatching more then once or twice a week. (If memory serves) and I can tell you from experience that I beat the ever loving crap out of my shoulders during the first 2 months of training snatch regularly.
I should note that this was before learning the proper methods to do anything really, and before I read s&s, and etk. If your snatch technique is on point, and your shoulder strength, mobility is there rock on and be a better person for it!
 

Unkle Mike

Double-Digit Post Count
Thank You Mr. Freides, and Maine-ah,
I've been working with kettlebells about 8 years, mostly on an ROP type protocol as above. Yesterday was my heavy day and I replaced C&P with snatches.
3 left, 3 right, slow nose breathing until I felt my metabolism had slowed to where I wasn't "pushing" for time, 20 total repeats followed by 4 sets of 3 reps goblet squats.
Overall felt like a good amount of work for a heavy day, didn't burn me out, but as the day went on it did feel like the snatches had tapped into my "tank" deeper than the usual C & P heavy day.
I feel a difference in how the snatches hit my shoulders and back vs C & P.
I'll continue this week as planned in the earlier post, then adjust volume if needed.
Regards,
Uncle Mike
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Thank You Mr. Freides, and Maine-ah,
I've been working with kettlebells about 8 years, mostly on an ROP type protocol as above. Yesterday was my heavy day and I replaced C&P with snatches.
3 left, 3 right, slow nose breathing until I felt my metabolism had slowed to where I wasn't "pushing" for time, 20 total repeats followed by 4 sets of 3 reps goblet squats.
Overall felt like a good amount of work for a heavy day, didn't burn me out, but as the day went on it did feel like the snatches had tapped into my "tank" deeper than the usual C & P heavy day.
I feel a difference in how the snatches hit my shoulders and back vs C & P.
I'll continue this week as planned in the earlier post, then adjust volume if needed.
Regards,
Uncle Mike
Try 5 on one side, rather than 3+3. Rest longer than you think. What load are you using? 20 is a lot for a first time out, depending upon what you've been doing.
 

Unkle Mike

Double-Digit Post Count
Thanks for pitching in Al, I really appreciate the guidance from you and others on these forums.
I'll switch to 5L, rest a lot, 5R, rest a lot, repeat.
The first 5 repeats yesterday were with the 20, following 15 repeats were with the 24.
On C&P heavy days I've been doing 5 ladders to 3 with the 36, followed by 80 1 hand swings.
Moderate and light day presses reduced to 80 and 60%, + 10 & + 20 swings.
Today is a no workout day, I feel great.
I think I'll stay on track with the original schedule this week, and adjust next week if I start feeling burned out.
Thanks Again,
Uncle Mike
 

Riley O'Neill

Triple-Digit Post Count
I have been doing a little experimenting with the daily S&S as my template. To use the budget mindset, there is a warmup budget, a ballistics budget (Which I think is A+A if I am doing it right, 10x10 swings), and a Grinding (the get ups).

The goal being that on a day today basis the cost of each one is more or less the same. If I change the warmup (which I always do) I try to gear it to where it feels like the same exertion as the S&S warmup.

The ballistic portion, usually I just do the 10x10 one arm swings. But sometimes I will increase the weight and drop the reps. For example, I will use 40kg and try to hit the same 3200kg worth of swings but 10 sets of 6 (Usually grip is a limiting factor, sometimes I just need to do a heavier swing though) . The format is still the 10 seconds of work followed up by a minute or so of the active recovery. I only do snatch sessions once every week or two and I will be experimenting with 20kg and 28kg (I don't own a 24kg). I haven't done the long cycle or jerks in a long time and haven't done any similar math for them. But either way, whatever the value of 10x10 one arm swings is, I want to come close to that when doing some other ballistic. Same format, same cost, just different move and weight. If anything I will be conservative and want to do 80% the value because I am better at one arm swings than any other single arm ballistic. I want to figure out the most accurate number for an A+A snatch session should I feel the need to substitute it out.

Then the get up budget. Same idea, whatever has the same cost as 5 sets of 32kg get ups. My preferred one is to just do 8 get ups with 40kg or the two hands anyhow with 20kg in the heavy hand and 16kg in the light hand. Or one arm pushups or pullups. I try to keep the exertion around the same as the get ups.


What I would like to see is some tables or data that more or less take rough approximates for the standard 10x10 swings (at some given weight) and then give a comparable priced snatch, jerk, or long cycle equivalent. So these various ballistics which all have their strengths. So if 32kg is my work weight for the swings, a chart that can show a near equivalent for the snatch and jerk in terms of weight and reps that will achieve a comparable level of conditioning.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
What I would like to see is some tables or data that more or less take rough approximates for the standard 10x10 swings (at some given weight) and then give a comparable priced snatch, jerk, or long cycle equivalent. So these various ballistics which all have their strengths. So if 32kg is my work weight for the swings, a chart that can show a near equivalent for the snatch and jerk in terms of weight and reps that will achieve a comparable level of conditioning.
I don't think it can be done. It would be like predicting someone's bench press based on their deadlift.

-S-
 
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