A+A snatches

rickyw

Level 6 Valued Member
@Unkle Mike maybe this is splitting hairs but you will be pressing for longer than 12 seconds in a set (most likely with reps of 3 presses or more) especially if you clean in between every rep, which moves you more into fast glycolysis aka greater lactate production.

Plus, you want moves that demand more power production to really work the atp-pc system
 
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Snowman

Level 6 Valued Member
you want moves that demand more power production to really work the atp-pc system
To expand on this, the ideal A+A movement rapidly uses up the available energy from the alactic system. This means you want an explosive, whole body movement. While the clean could be seen as such a movement (especially the double clean), the press isn't explosive, and used far less musculature than swings, snatches, sprints, etc. You could apply the A+A work/rest format to C&P (I did for a little while), but it's just not as effective as the other options.
 

Unkle Mike

Level 1 Valued Member
Thank You,
I clean once then press for 1 to 3 reps.
I increase the number of ladders as I feel the "gas left in the tank" after sessions increase over time.
This is what I have found works for me to continue making gradual progress to the next heavier bell.
Regards,
Uncle Mike
 

Unkle Mike

Level 1 Valued Member
Thank You Snowman, and Mr. Levens,
To narrow the focus:
Explode for 10 to 12 seconds, rest a lot, repeat. ?
Regards,
Uncle Mike
 

GeoffreyLevens

Level 6 Valued Member
Somehow I had thought more like 15-20 seconds? But no matter, LCC&J is explosive, just less total reps than snatch or swings
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I have not attended Strong Endurance, but I want to float an idea I've trained with over the years, namely that:

It's acceptable, even in A+A terms, to lengthen the work time if the recovery time is dramatically increased as well. I've done sets of 25 swings on the 4:00 - that's one example. The relationship between work time and rest time isn't linear, e.g., sets of 10 swings on the minute, sets of 15 swings on the 1:30, sets of 20 swings on the 2:30, and sets of 25 on the 4:00.

I arrived at those numbers by feel - that's how long it took to feel properly recovered. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that I was maybe some into that middle energy system but not too much.

And perhaps most important, these were 24 kg swings, so relatively light.

-S-
 

GeoffreyLevens

Level 6 Valued Member
So really, when explosiveness just starts to drop off, that's the end of the set. Then rest until you can be fully explosive again.

24 kg swings light for you, heavy for me! I can get through sets of 10 at that weight but they don't have the "pop" yet I can get with even a 20 kg. And 16 kg seems to really be my sweet spot for ballistics. I hope that may change with increasing strength as time goes on.
 

Unkle Mike

Level 1 Valued Member
So,
5 snatches or C & J left, 5 right, with maximum power output, then rest a lot,
can provide an optimum A+A "return on investment" ?
Thanks Again Everyone,
Uncle Mike
 

Maine-ah KB

Level 6 Valued Member
@GeoffreyLevens the lovely thing about training is you don't have to hope, if you put in the work you will get results! And sf is a good source of training info. You'll be swingin' that 24 in no time with practice!
 

Al Ciampa

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I'm skimming here... @Unkle Mike, as others have said, a key component is the rate of CPr depletion. C&P ladders are great for work capacity, but technically, don't fall under A+A.
 

Snowman

Level 6 Valued Member
Long cycle clean and jerk more in the ballpark? Or still close but no cigar?
I just forgot to add it to my list. The common opinion seems to be that snatches are better than C&J's, which are better than swings of various kinds. I think the finer details are still being worked out to some degree, and I'm not sure where sprints, jumps, and compensatory acceleration squats/deadlifts fall on the spectrum. Everyone does seem to agree the the KB ballistics are ideal. There are quite a few folks who agree that snatches and C&Js are ideal-er, and the snatch is the czar. As someone who has has only done A&A clean and jerks for about 6 weeks out of the last 18 months, I can't really comment about their efficacy. I've mostly been doing snatches and swings. I would definitely say that snatches produce better results than swings, even though swings are necessary at times, and produce good results in their own right.

So really, when explosiveness just starts to drop off, that's the end of the set.
Yup, give or take a rep.Usually this takes 10-20 seconds with a moderately heavy weight.

5 snatches or C & J left, 5 right, with maximum power output, then rest a lot,
I would edit this to read [5 snatches or C & J left with maximum power][then rest a lot][5 snatches or C & J right with maximum power][then rest a lot]. A small, but significant change. It's also worth noting that 5 snatches is more like 2-3 C&J's, not 5. Instead of reps, compare time under tension, and how you feel after the end of the set.

@GeoffreyLevens the lovely thing about training is you don't have to hope, if you put in the work you will get results!
+1,000, even for people who are close to their "performance ceiling" (as determined by lifestyle, priorities and genetics), but generally speaking, the only way for me to know if something works for me is to do it. If it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't work, or stops working, do something else. Done in an intelligent manner, we call this "programming," and holy cow did it take me a while to grasp that. I still struggle with it sometimes.

I reserve the right to be corrected by anyone more knowledgeable than I ;)
 

LoneRider

Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks for this post, everyone.

I, too, will start integrating A+A Snatches into my programming (mostly barbell work for strength) to see how that works. I consistently snatch a 24KG kettlebell in sets of 10-10+ reps (usually up to about 15 at a stretch, but my form is iffy there).

I'm thinking of doing this 2x week alternating with heavy swings every other session (based on the 'Heavy Swings/Light Snatches protocol) so my two week training would look like this:

Mon - A+A Snatches (10-20 repeats to start with 3-5x reps as a repeat)
Weds-Swings (100/150 favoring heavy reps)
Friday - A+A Snatches

The next week I'll do heavy swings twice a week and the next A+A snatches with the guidelines stated in this thread. In either case I'm not running myself ragged with my barbell work before my ballistics.

Other ways, it seems I'd 'same but different' approach this could be (please correct me if mistaken) varying the load (like one day do all snatches at 24KG, the next day do some of my reps with 16 KG and the rest with 24KG, and the day after 16 KG only). Seems like that could go well too...
 

Sean Mulcahy

Level 5 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Maybe a silly question but for the 5 heavy snatches are people doing 1 swing and then 5 snatches? Not sure I could hike pass a 32 right into a snatch.
 

LoneRider

Level 6 Valued Member
Did my first A+A Snatch practice today. How I started was thus:
  • I normally snatch a 24KG kettlebell from when I was doing RoP back in 2016, so that was the weight I use.
  • I tossed a coin. Heads meant play poker and tails blackjack. The values on the cards added up to the number of repeats I performed. Today the coin was on heads so I 'played A+A Poker', the total value of the five cards was 29.
  • Each 'Repeat' went this way: 5x reps, jog 25m (breathing thru my nose) and about 30-45 seconds of rest. The snatches were the alactic and the 25m jogs were active aerobic rest followed by complete and total rest.
  • In 29 repeats I got 146 reps. The last 'repeat', to even things out was a 3/3 snatch at 24KG.
  • I performed this after my bench press workout (2x5 and 1x4 at 195 lbs).
  • The repeats were sustainable, and I didn't feel excessively beat up.
Tomorrow's training will be swings (100 or 150 reps per a coin toss) favoring heavy (for me 32KG and heavier) bells after I do power cleans (5-6 singles) and deadlift (1x5).

My plan for the future is thus:
  • Monitor how I recover from my repeats.
  • In a 'Same but different' way vary the load from session to session. This session was 24KG the next will be a total jump off to 16KG then the one following it will be 16KG/24KG (half the repeats at 16KG and the other half at 24KG).
  • Maintain the 'randomness' aspect with the coin tosses and the playing cards too.
  • Train the A+A Snatches and Heavy Swings in an alternating fashion 2-3x/week. So for one week I'd snatch 2x/week and swing once a week and the next week swing twice a week and snatch once so the second week is a back-off of sorts for the snatches and swings.
 
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