Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Please link it when it is finished.I hope you don't mind, I borrowed heavily from this post for a blog post I'm working on...You said it so well it was hard for me to reword it
Kettlebell A+A snatches
- Thread starter CoreyW
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Riley Cooper
First Post
I just did 60 sets of five snatches. I used a heart rate monitor to tell me when to start my next set. The heart rate trigger is at a number where I feel recovered. It was easy. I’m really liking this protocol. Low stress, low risk, low impact, great benefits! I am trying it for other techniques. The rules being; stop the set before lactic burn; start the set when recovered from previous; stop the workout before form breakdown or an hour whichever comes first.
I think what I love most is the simplicity of it!
Thanks for sharing this great protocol Al! I I just listened to you on the strong first podcast and I really think you should write that book!
I think what I love most is the simplicity of it!
Thanks for sharing this great protocol Al! I I just listened to you on the strong first podcast and I really think you should write that book!
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
@Riley Cooper welcome to the forum!
. All in good time, as it were.
Sounds solid. All I really do now is snatches, but I spent quite a while playing around with other movements as well. I think it was very instructive. Swing, snatch, and clean (with or without the jerk) are all good, and you can even apply it to slower moving techniques, though they won't be as effective as the explosive movements. Some people have also used other high-power-output modalities like sprints, jumps, etc, but the kettlebell ballistics really seem to get you the most bang for your buck.
Indeed. A clear set of guidelines that still allow for some freedom. As long as you follow the general rules, you'll get the results as advertised.
That's pretty good for your first A+A session; what's your background, generally speaking? Not wanting to make assumptions...
Haha, yeah, I think one or two of us share that sentiment
. All in good time, as it were.
miked
Level 6 Valued Member
I just posted it this morning. Nothing new and exciting. Mainly a copy of what @Harald Motz posted. I just needed something at the top of the blog roll for when the New Year's Resolutioners are checking out the gym. I'm working on a much better series which I hope to get up sometime soon.
What is A+A Work?
fractal
Level 7 Valued Member
They’re useful alternative that I sometimes finish sessions with if my hands aren’t up for more snatches or 1H swings
Jim Lauerman
Level 6 Valued Member
I used two handed swings until my shoulders were strengthened with crawling. Then I transitioned to one-handed swings.
With my history of deep shoulder pain, I may never transition to snatches, although that remains on my “perhaps some day” wish list. I don’t think snatches are necessary to meet my goal of everyday functional capacity so long as I can do TGU’s. Again, S&S covers the bases.
Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
The ballistic movement (power/explosive) is what matters; snatches simply add the overhead position to swings, which, it turns out, is no small matter.
Also important: although you will want to infrequently move in longer work periods, such as limited tempo running on a jogging program, most of the work periods need to be less than 12-15 sec.
Snowman
Level 6 Valued Member
I started with two-handed swings because my grip was too weak to hang onto a very heavy 'bell with just one hand.
Riley Cooper
First Post
Hey Snowman, I started training with bells around four years ago now with S&S. Slowly went from weak to much stronger. As soon as I heard about A+A it appealed to me and tried to incorporate its principles into my approach. I’ve been doing flawed versions of it for a bit. I think it’s awesome. Before bells I played all manner of contact sports and sort of destroyed my joints. Kettlebell exercise has slowly but surely glued me back together! Nothing short of amazing for me!
Dayz
Level 8 Valued Member
Thank you for clarifying this. Always a wealth of information!
J Cox
Level 6 Valued Member
If I am doing any hinges, including C&P, I like to toss in 5-10 one arm swings, just to remind my body of the pattern and tension. My first hike feels much sharper if I do.
SFSparky
Level 5 Valued Member
Super glad to have found this thread. Just finished week 8 of Q&D, 4 more to go. Added DLs and barbell presses (from the ground) at week 7. Seeing modest strength gains with those two, slight weight loss and muscle gain that I attribute to Q&D. Been debating whether to do another 12-week Q&D course next, while continuing DLs and presses, or A+A. Thanks to what I’ve read on this thread, leaning toward A+A. Many thanks to all who have posted on this thread. What you share educates and enlightens me.
CoreyW
Level 5 Valued Member
I'm planning on giving this A+A a go again. And keep with it and not get distracted. I haven't done any kind of workout since July. I go lobstering and have been working 60-70 hrs a week so I haven't had much left on the tank to put into a workout. (Between family stuff and my daughter getting married) But now the weather is getting crappy and getting a few days off here and there. I plan on starting with the 16kg and working out Monday Wednesday and Friday(but I may only get 2 days a week for a while). When you guys vary your volume how are you doing it? Are you doing a heavy and lighter day or are you doing heavy, medium and light? Say your doing 20 repeats for your heavy day are you doing 10 or 15 for a light day?
16 kg is too light for true A+A, but it is not too light for good snatch practice, if that's where you are. So I would say just accumulate some volume with it, move up in weight as you are able, then maybe look for a protocol. You could contact Al to join his site... He has lots of protocols and people actively doing them there. 20 repeats is a pretty light day... some light days are less, but most days are in the upper 20s and heavy/long days in the 40s and 50s.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Curious as to why this is. If 16kg is your 10 rep kb, then isn't the muscle and metabolic stress just about right for A+A?
I don't think it is. Al may disagree, and he's the more definitive source. But the way I see it, 16kg just isn't heavy. It may be hard (if you're new to snatching)... but it's not heavy. You just don't have to use a lot of muscle fiber to move the load.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Yes and that depends on how much muscle fiber you have and how much you have wired up to be available. Seems to me both those factors would figure in???
Can't find it now but awhile ago there was a thread or poll discussing %bodyweight people were training A+A with. I would think that would be a relevant number in determining what is "heavy" for a person?
I think A+A plays by the same rules that Q&D does. Pavel says in "The Quick and The Dead", "When we tested various experimental plans, we discovered that while everyone improved on Q&D, to our great surprise, experienced athletes improved the most. Fighters, military special operators... guys who could press the Besast for reps made much more dramatic progress-- in both absolute and relative terms-- than ladies and gents who were still working their way up to the Simple standard."
So, of course, you do what you can do. But if you can do more, you can get more out of it. Someone who has devloped more strength, power, and muscle mass through their training has a bigger tool for the job, and a bigger potential to get more return on the investment of work.
An analogy: Let's say we wanted a group of people to analyze recent exercise science studies. We have an M.D. who is a lifter, an M.D. who does not exercise except doing the elliptical at the gym, a high-school educated lifter, and a high-school educated carpenter who does no exercise other than his work. We give them all 10 hours to read 10 exercise science studies, and brief us on the results. Who is going to be able to tell us the most about the studies -- i.e., who has the bigger tool (brain+ analytical training + educational background) for the job? I would place them in the order listed. The M.D. who is a lifter has a huge knowledge base, both medical and exercise-related, to accurately analyze the studies. The M.D. who doesn't exercise is good at reading studies, but will be less good at getting meaningful information from them relative to exercise. The high-school-educated lifter would know a lot about the subject matter but likely has a non-disciplined analytical skill. The carpenter would likely say they have no idea what any of it is about... and why don't these people pick up some real tools and do some real work?!
With that analogy you can see how different people can get more "return" out of 10 hours of work. It is the same for some types of physical training.
Back to the more relevant issue of the size of the person -- of course height matters, and possibly frame size... but short/small people can develop a lot of muscle. It is possible. Not to say they need to... but, they can. And if they do, they can throw around more than 16kg on a regular basis. And if they can do that, they can get more out of A+A training.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Anna C, thank you. That all makes sense!
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