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Kettlebell A+A what a hell effect?

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I've done A+A (snatches 5 reps, mostly EMOM) for 8 weeks with 32kg. I've been doing around 16-30 sets. Today I completed 40 sets for the first time. With ease! I felt I could continue forever. I stopped at 40 sets just to not get too overconfident . I think I'm ready to begin incorporate the 40 kg.
 
@Stefan Hedborg If for some reason you have problems with the 40, try a round or two of Quick and Dead. I was where you were not so long ago with A+A with 32kg (exactly that, 40 repeats of 5!), but could not snatch the 40 confidently. It would go up once or twice, but they were not beautiful reps. Also, I could not start the bell from the ground to a snatch directly, I had to swing it first and then enter into snatches.

However, I then switched to Q&D and I now finished 6 weeks of Q&D with the 32 (started at sets of 4 or 8, instead of 5 or 10, and slowly increased the numbers up). On Monday I felt like I had good snatches in me with the 40, so that's what I did. I don't know how to explain it why with words. I just got to my kettlebells, warmed up as usual, looked at my 40 and felt that I would be able to do nice crisp reps with it, so I picked it up and I was able to work up to a set of 3 with the 40 without first 1 hand swinging the kettlebell, and these were solid snatches. I also probably could have done sets of 5 or more. The first rep was a bit wobbly as I got used to the behavior of a heavier weight, but within 10 minutes I was doing nice snatches with the 40 under control.

My take is that my A+A snatches were not sharp enough to get me to 40. In A+A, I try to maintain the intensity knob at around 7/10 or 8/10. In Q&D, I tried to go all out each rep and drop the bell very aggressively.

Of course, you may be able to get to the 40 directly and in that case, don't pay attention to me! I may be the one who did not do things "right". However, the more I think about it, the more I think that the answer to snatching heavier is to do a bout of Q&D.
 
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@Manuel Fortin , Thanks for the information! I can really imagine that doing 6-12 weeks of Q&D would boost snatching. I did Q&D with 32 kg during 12 weeks before the new year. Thanks to that I could start A+A snatching 32 kg bell without transitioning from lighter bells.

So I've got roughly 4 weeks until I go into a Q&D period mixed with running. The summer is coming to Sweden and I want to be outside running and do Q&D for maintainance. Then during autumn/winter I'll maybe go back to A+A and some barbell stuff.
Question is, should I focus this last month of A+A, before going to Q&D, to build more volume with 32 kg or to try to incorparate 40 kg? Maybe it's wise to wait with 40 kg until after my Q&D period?

This way to train is som much fun! During summer I can just bring thge kettlebells outside and get some fresh air and sun. I work as a firefighter and I feel it's just the right type of training. I'm always ready to go on calls and work hard, never sore. I feel I'm building a resiliant and anti-fragile body who hopefully can handle some hard work. They say there's a possibility for a heavy wildfireseason here this summer... Long days in the forest.

All the best!
 
My take is that my A+A snatches were not sharp enough to get me to 40. In A+A, I try to maintain the intensity knob at around 7/10 or 8/10. In Q&D, I tried to go all out each rep and drop the bell very aggressively.
Do other experienced A+A athletes see this the same? Is the standard A+A way to turn the volume up to 7-8/10, while Q&D (and S&S) are more 9/10?
 
Do other experienced A+A athletes see this the same? Is the standard A+A way to turn the volume up to 7-8/10, while Q&D (and S&S) are more 9/10?

That's a great question. I'm not sure of the standard/correct answer, but in my experience -- yes. I've done hundreds of A+A sessions and only a handful of Q&D sessions, but they are a little different, even when doing the same 5 heavy snatches for each repeat. The A+A mindset is more of a laborer -- do the effort fast and hard but get it done and recover, then just keep doing it again and again -- and the Q&D more like you're going in for a fight -- give it all you've got, maybe go another few rounds, but then the job is done. So yes, I would say Q&D tends to be a higher intensity of effort.
 
Do other experienced A+A athletes see this the same? Is the standard A+A way to turn the volume up to 7-8/10, while Q&D (and S&S) are more 9/10?


I'm in no way a specialist, and may have done the program " wrong". Also, maybe 7 is a bit too low of an estimation. I don't really think that any A+A rep with the 32 was easy, but they were not complete max effort either, especially in the sessions that got over 150 snatches. In A+A, the pace was a bit slower (small pause at the top) and there was less of an emphasis on hiking the bell hard on the way down. I was basically trying to learn from the excellent posts of @Harald Motz. If you look at his HR traces, they don't spike that much during A+A. However, I remember seeing one for one of his Q&D session, and his HR went way up. His videos of A+A snatching also show a small pause at the top.

Of note, before I did Q&D, I thought that my A+A snatches were 9s. Turns out that if I wanted to, I could go much harder, which I did in Q&D. The past snatches did not change, they just got downgraded retroactively. I could have said that A+A were 9s and that my Q&D were 11s, but that doesn't make much sense, except if you are a Spinal Tap fan.

All that being said, there is no way to snatch 32kg "easily". You really need to snap the hips as you cannot muscle your way through the chest and head portion of the snatch. Try to "row" 32kg overhead slowly without getting under the bell (just lifting it from the top). You will not get very far.

This may all come down to trying to express in words something that I did not quantify. I think @Anna C said it best in her post just above mine. Or I'm just a bit lazy, who knows...
 
I'm in no way a specialist, and may have done the program " wrong". Also, maybe 7 is a bit too low of an estimation. I don't really think that any A+A rep with the 32 was easy, but they were not complete max effort either, especially in the sessions that got over 150 snatches. In A+A, the pace was a bit slower (small pause at the top) and there was less of an emphasis on hiking the bell hard on the way down. I was basically trying to learn from the excellent posts of @Harald Motz. If you look at his HR traces, they don't spike that much during A+A. However, I remember seeing one for one of his Q&D session, and his HR went way up. His videos of A+A snatching also show a small pause at the top.

Of note, before I did Q&D, I thought that my A+A snatches were 9s. Turns out that if I wanted to, I could go much harder, which I did in Q&D. The past snatches did not change, they just got downgraded retroactively. I could have said that A+A were 9s and that my Q&D were 11s, but that doesn't make much sense, except if you are a Spinal Tap fan.

All that being said, there is no way to snatch 32kg "easily". You really need to snap the hips as you cannot muscle your way through the chest and head portion of the snatch. Try to "row" 32kg overhead slowly without getting under the bell (just lifting it from the top). You will not get very far.

This may all come down to trying to express in words something that I did not quantify. I think @Anna C said it best in her post just above mine. Or I'm just a bit lazy, who knows...

I agree with all that, myself! Well said.
 
This week I am not doing Q&D after just finishing a 6 weeks cycle. Q&D is tough and I did not roll many 40 reps session and had many 100 reps ones. On average you should do one of each every 2 weeks if you snatch 3 times a week, but due to the way the sessions were generated, I even had one 100/60/100 week and only 40 sessions, one of whic h was added "manually" on a day I was a bit off due to bad sleep.. After 6 weeks of this, I needed a bit of a break. Not enough to stop training, but enough for a deload, just having "fun" with the kettlebells instead of trying to show them who is the boss. This allows me to compare the different styles of training.

On Monday, I tried the 40 as stated above, only a few sets each side. They felt good, but this was definitively different from either A+A or Q&D. The effect was closer to what you get from a good deadlift session. 40 is closer to my max and it taxes my grip a lot, so this felt like strength training. A set with the 40, even 3 of them, did not really get me huffing and puffing, but I took more than 1 minute between sets to recover. Maybe similar to a single deadlift at 85-90 percent of max. You can repeat the effort quickly, but you know you did some work.

On Wednesday, I did 26 repeats of 5 in my usual A+A manner with the 32. This was I would say about as tough as doing a 60 reps session of Q&D. I could have continued, but this is after all a deload, I was getting a bit tired, and it was time for dinner.

Tonight, I will try to do Q&D snatches (volume turned up to 11) in sets of 5, but with the rest period of A+A until I am "done". I will compare and get back to the forum with impressions eventually. My take is that I will not get to 130 "easily", but we'll see.
 
Tonight, I will try to do Q&D snatches (volume turned up to 11) in sets of 5, but with the rest period of A+A until I am "done". I will compare and get back to the forum with impressions eventually. My take is that I will not get to 130 "easily", but we'll see.
You mean "power turned up to 11"?

I'm starting to experiment with Q&D format, but taking a bit longer than 2 minutes between series. So far I enjoy it more than normal q&d, when I feel a little rushed.
 
Do other experienced A+A athletes see this the same? Is the standard A+A way to turn the volume up to 7-8/10, while Q&D (and S&S) are more 9/10?

Just my 2 cents...
Yes, I experience the same, and, in my uneducated opinion it depends mainly on 2 things:

1. Usually A+A is a voluminous session, and one always tries to leave some fuel in the tank to maintain 40-45 minutes of good form and decent power. Hence this "7-8" setting is set instinctively for certain weight and sets numbers.
2. The usual play with 2 things - weight and rest period, and what's more compromised when you go full power for longer period - aerobic or strength system. So to say, to bear "9-10" setting or "Q&D style" 5 snatches of 32 kg you need to grow stronger in the same exercise. The ways could be different, going for periods of Q&D after A+A can very much be one of these ways. Or GTG heavier bell another day with appropriate recovery and running at certain pace. Or else.
 
It's a Spinal Tap reference. Yes, it's power, but we often talk about the "knob", when stating how hard we work. This was to make a joke. Somehow, saying "turning the RPE to 11" kind of kills the joke. This reference only shows my age. I doubt many 20 or 30-something have seen the movie.
Oh yeah sorry, I confused volume with volume
 
OK, so I did the Q&D snatches in A+A fashion: sets of five snatches, but quick, explosive with a good hike on the way back. A lot of rest between sets. This was a weird feeling after doing these two things separately. After 18 repeats, I started to get less power, while in my "normal" A+A work on Wednesday I was able to do 26 repeats and stopped to be "reasonable" after not doing any session longer than 100 snatches for close to 2 months. I had to take much more rest also between sets to keep maximal effort on each rep. In a way, the effect felt a bit like going up in weight in A+A. That makes sense. The snatches were crisper, faster and requires more strength as I hiked the bell faster. When you go up in weight, there is a point where the weight has trouble going up.
 
OK, so I did the Q&D snatches in A+A fashion: sets of five snatches, but quick, explosive with a good hike on the way back. A lot of rest between sets. This was a weird feeling after doing these two things separately. After 18 repeats, I started to get less power, while in my "normal" A+A work on Wednesday I was able to do 26 repeats and stopped to be "reasonable" after not doing any session longer than 100 snatches for close to 2 months. I had to take much more rest also between sets to keep maximal effort on each rep. In a way, the effect felt a bit like going up in weight in A+A. That makes sense. The snatches were crisper, faster and requires more strength as I hiked the bell faster. When you go up in weight, there is a point where the weight has trouble going up.
Thanks for the comparison!
 
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