Kettlebell A+A what a hell effect?

[WxHerk]

When Sawaki Roshi was asked: "zazen-what is it good for? he answered "good for nothing". That does not mean zazen/training has no effects...lately I do zazen very rarely, but when I sit I just sit, when I snatch I just snatch, when I run slow I just run slow, when I row 10k in 40min I just row 10k in 40min.

The A+A philosophy is probably the closest approach to "practice". Accumulation of 'good training karma' - if it makes any sense.

The power alactics is one side of the coin, doing endurance/locomotion work the other side. Easy aerobics lets me absorb volumes of power work. Lately I am doing some high frequency high intensity single rep barbell work with the press, hexbar dl and some squats for quite some weeks now. I am fairly convinced that concurrent endurance work lets me recover from that also.

I am a Jack of power, strength endurance trades and not disappointed to have no "success"...but keep on doing anyway.

That makes crystal clear, perfect sense to me!! You spell out my personal inner philosophy: I do what I do and don't involve my mind in the moment other than to go forward. I have happened to accumulate "good training karma" but that is a byproduct of traveling this particular road, it's not a goal or destination..it's a wonderful part of the journey.

First, when deployed to Germany last year I had the tremendous fortune to meet Harald and spend a day with him in Stuttgart, at Sportcodex along with the other magnificent German SFGs. Again, what an absolutely TERRIFIC experience!!

Harald is very much like a panther in his build and his movements. The Q&D big cat concept very much applies!! Harald is a wealth of information but quietly listens and absorbs everything...of course we were listening to Pavel Macek!!!

I have also been A&A snatching for several months. At age 56 I am snatching the 32kg for 30~50 five snatch repeats. No elbow problems of any sort. Three weeks ago, after 500+ snatches over three consecutive days, my hands became a little tender but that went away by the next morning.

Following Harald's zazen comment, just keep snatching and not worrying about it. In a few decades, Harald might not be the only 80 year old snatching heavy on YouTube!!

 

[Harald Motz]

I have also been A&A snatching for several months. At age 56 I am snatching the 32kg for 30~50 five snatch repeats. No elbow problems of any sort. Three weeks ago, after 500+ snatches over three consecutive days, my hands became a little tender but that went away by the next morning

John, that's seriously impressive. Like I stated before: even volumes of fairly heavy snatching over months and years with decent technique seems not to wreck bones joints and spines, generally. Sure the hands get a beating from time to time but there is no way around it and there is a real peril that wrecked hands can alter snatch technique for the worse.

Following Harald's zazen comment, just keep snatching and not worrying about it. In a few decades, Harald might not be the only 80 year old snatching heavy on YouTube!!

A+A is chopping wood (lumberjack snatching) and carrying water (walk, jog, hike...). To stay in the analogy: zazen in Soto Zen is a center piece of the practice - just sitting. This one practice serves a lifetime. So is the snatch a center piece of A+A practice: you just need one bell and with the practical guidelines you also have 'programming' for a lifetime.

 

[Im out]

I find it very impressive how your hands survive 50 repeats of snatches. I had to stop at 16 repeats this morning because the skin felt like it was going to tear. ?

 

[Harald Motz]

I find it very impressive how your hands survive 50 repeats of snatches. I had to stop at 16 repeats this morning because the skin felt like it was going to tear. ?

Even if your handling of the handle is stellar, going into volumes of snatching hands get a beating. Handcare becomes very important. To nudge the skin into adaptation and faster healing processes you may need to do some sessions with not perfectly recoverred hands.
It is part of the game.

 

[WxHerk]

Even if your handling of the handle is stellar, going into volumes of snatching hands get a beating. Handcare becomes very important. To nudge the skin into adaptation and faster healing processes you may need to do some sessions with not perfectly recoverred hands.
It is part of the game.

Thank You for the kind words, Harald..

Could not agree more strongly! It's a gradual process, though. Keep nudging the envelope. Also, learning to "throw and catch" the bell is paramount. Coming down, I throw the bell from my fingers to my palm, skipping over the calluses. There is an barely audible "slap" on the catch. That technique has been my biggest hand care breakthrough, resulting in several calluses on my mid hand, the most visible being below my index finger callus.

This morning’s session is attached. Fifty 32kg repeats, the time between 19 and 20 was my wandering over to talk with @AnnaC and disrupt her training! Weird session in that I had trouble sleeping last night (about 4 hours total) but really had an incredible session! Pavel T says that understanding is a delaying tactic, so I just pinned my ears back and rode the wave..

 

[Harald Motz]

Coming down, I throw the bell from my fingers to my palm,

that's my technique too. Pulling/guiding the bell with the fingers hook and gripping it really hard on the hike. You could call it 'overgripping' Tim Almond calls it 'whip grip', I call iz 'deep grip'...additionally when the handle is deep down in the palm, it makes the flip of the bell easier, as at lockout the handly is deep anyway. Pure 'hook grip' is doable with lighter bells and also should be preferred with a snatch test. Therefore 'mastery' of the snatch is a really looong road. There are quite a few breathing techniques too, fast eccentrics...

@WxHerk : nice hr graph by the way.

 

[Bauer]

that's my technique too. Pulling/guiding the bell with the fingers hook and gripping it really hard on the hike. You could call it 'overgripping' Tim Almond calls it 'whip grip', I call iz 'deep grip'...additionally when the handle is deep down in the palm, it makes the flip of the bell easier, as at lockout the handly is deep anyway. Pure 'hook grip' is doable with lighter bells and also should be preferred with a snatch test. Therefore 'mastery' of the snatch is a really looong road. There are quite a few breathing techniques too, fast eccentrics...

@WxHerk : nice hr graph by the way.

Would you mind taking illustrating pictures of handle placement for both the hike and the lockout position? I am not sure that I read that right

 

[Harald Motz]

Would you mind taking illustrating pictures of handle placement for both the hike and the lockout position? I am not sure that I read that right

So a break up of how I snatch heavier bells:

In the set up I grab the handle deeply.

that is my starting position with a flexed wrist it is like a tensed spring. I grab tightly and swing it back into the hike. When my wrist extends on the ' up snatch' it gets additional momentum to flip.

 

[Harald Motz]

on taming the arc:

The concentric phase, my intention is to pull the bell towards me, and as the 40k is relatively heavy and the centrifugal forces high I have to lean back:


this is the eccentric phase: I push my knees forward and lean my torso back without hyperexteding to make space for the bell to be able to guide the bell in a more vertical path by pulling my elbow down and back, to make connection of my upper arm to the torso before the hike. Safes the shoulder. Here might also be a point where I begin to grab that handle really hard again deep into my palm. Note the difference of the bell position in the two pics in relation to the handrail on the right side.

lockout position where I tend to have a flexed wrist. Gives me a stronger lockout and an easier flip on the eccentric.

 

[Harald Motz]

eccentric, the bell is flipping, loose grip, handle more towards the fingers hook, my knees going forward to make space:



the concentric, loose grip, flexed wrist, punch trough, about to get the bell deep into my palm



The catch into the hike: the handle is deep into my palm and the handle is pinched tightly into the meat of my palm. 'overgripping' ...'whip grip', 'deep grip


that is the way I snatch relatively heavy bells in my A+A style. I use plenty of chalk, rechalk on almost any repeat.

 

[Al Ciampa]

eccentric, the bell is flipping, loose grip, handle more towards the fingers hook, my knees going forward to make space:
View attachment 9936


the concentric, loose grip, flexed wrist, punch trough, about to get the bell deep into my palm
View attachment 9935


The catch into the hike: the handle is deep into my palm and the handle is pinched tightly into the meat of my palm. 'overgripping' ...'whip grip', 'deep grip
View attachment 9937

that is the way I snatch relatively heavy bells in my A+A style. I use plenty of chalk, rechalk on almost any repeat.

Sunglasses are optional?

 

[Harald Motz]

Sunglasses are optional?

to look cool in vids and pics, mandatory.
Wearing Samba's not negotiable.

 

[Al Ciampa]

to look cool in vids and pics, mandatory.
Wearing Samba's not negotiable.

Got it!

 

[2accidental]

Inspiring stuff indeed.

Where may I find this article by Harald mentioned above (or is it a thread)?

 

[Harald Motz]

Inspiring stuff indeed.

Where may I find this article by Harald mentioned above (or is it a thread)?

rather a 'megathread':

Kettlebell - Alactic + Aerobic

If you're here because you're following a link from our podcast with Al Ciampa, Harald Motz' original post has received 100's of replies from our members and is approaching 50,000 page views. It make take you a little while to come up to speed on what you're reading, but I hope you find it...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[2accidental]

Thank you, Harald.

 

[Bauer]

So a break up of how I snatch heavier bells

Thanks a lot, Harald!

 

[Trever]

That is very interesting. I’ve been practicing basically the opposite grip. I use a hook grip during the hike and upward movement, then during the flip and punch through I get the handle deep into my open hand for the lockout. On the way down the handle comes out of my palm and into the hook grip to keep from pinching my calluses(painful). My hands are small and I’ve been wondering lately how much longer I can progress in weight until my fingers aren’t strong enough to handle the hook grip.

 

[Harald Motz]

That is very interesting. I’ve been practicing basically the opposite grip. I use a hook grip during the hike and upward movement, then during the flip and punch through I get the handle deep into my open hand for the lockout. On the way down the handle comes out of my palm and into the hook grip to keep from pinching my calluses(painful). My hands are small and I’ve been wondering lately how much longer I can progress in weight until my fingers aren’t strong enough to handle the hook grip.

The point I want to make is the following: the hook grip works till it does not. For lighter - medium bells with moderate acceleration.

When I snatch heavier and/or high acceleration I grip the bell deeply and hard. I never lost a bell. Hurting hands are not an aim or accomplishment but just a matter of fact from time to time. It is not 'all technique' but simply friction.

 

[Patrik Novák]

Harald are you do Also push ups?
Some tíme Ago 3-4years I hear about program from Al Ciampa Lumberjack in which Has (push ups,snatches and walk/run/hiking)
Thanks

Best
Pat