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Other/Mixed A+A with strict or relaxed rests?

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
I'm still very much learning about A+A and looking forward to reading the book when it arrives. From what everyone has said, can timeless swings as per S&S be considered A+A?? It seems its typically around 5 reps rather than ten, but the rest/recovery seems to be the same?
 
Symanoy said:
can timeless swings as per S&S be considered A+A?? It seems its typically around 5 reps rather than ten, but the rest/recovery seems to be the same?
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I think now I would say yes, timeless S&S swings can be considered A+A as it's essentially very similar and meets the important qualifications of A+A -- using a power-based exercise with repeated efforts, and drawing specifically on the alactic and aerobic energy pathways while limiting the use of the glycolytic energy pathway.

Timeless S&S swings do lack some of what I think of (thank you to @Steve W. who I recall used this phrase -- edit, oh yeah it was earlier in this thread actually, in this excellent post) as "classic A+A", which would be a harder, shorter, heavier effort for each repeat. And the number of repeats in a "classic A+A" session would tend to be an average of 30 or so, as opposed to 10 with S&S. So timeless S&S would likely provide less benefit in aerobic and endurance improvements than "classic A+A" programs.

But yes as you mentioned, the rest/recovery would be pretty much the same. And the rest/recovery is a VERY important component of either type of program.
 
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I use 2 different approaches, depending on the previous day's efforts (physical, mental, work, etc).

1. E45s when I want to close my mind and just *WORK*:
start -> my polar watch is set to beep at 15s then 30s later then 15s later then 30s later. effectively giving me 15s to Work and 30s to Rest. Each loop is 45 seconds and mhy sessions are typically 30 to 40 minutes.
i'd spend the first loops with a warmup (2to4 Halos; 1or2 prying goblet squats; hip bridge: each for 15s on and 30s rest).
a bunch of deadlifts. I can get 4-6 slow purposefull reps done in 15s.
then decide on easy,medium,hard day (wave the load) and do anywhere between 12 and 20 sets of 5 1H swings accordingly
depending on time and energy, I'd do more tricks. anything goes with 12kg. many things with 16kg, and still only swings/deadlifts with 24kg,
a few minutes of easy stretching to cool off.

2. full effort + full rest when I'm READY TO GO
the warmup is similar to above. I do not track/monitor this warmup.
the tricks are similar with the weight restrictions (e.g. deadlifts and swings with 24kg; lunges and snatches with 16kg, TGU/Windmill with 12 etc).
I use full effort (e.g. Q&D style of strongly engaging with the swing on the ups and downs) for 4-7 reps of each set.
now I track my rest period by watching my Heart Rate (actually my watch is set to beep when I'm out of my planned HR Zone)
when the watch beeps (HR Too Low) I start my next set. this is around 110bpm (I pass the talk test at about 134 which is also around my Maffetone point)
I do not count the number of sets. I do not check HR while doing the sets, I do not care how high my HR gets. just ensure that it drops to the 108-110 BPM before the next set, I gofor a total of 30-40 minutes including warmup and cooldowns.

I have not been STRONG for the past few months :( and restarted E45's 1perweek for the past 2or3 weeks. here is a sample of a recent E45 training session : 82 phases = 41 loops of 45seconds = +- 30 minutes: I think the large spikes relate to lunges, and the dip at the end is when I had to check on the stove then I returned for the last set.
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The bottom of the blue zone equates to the trigger-point where I'm READY TO GO in the option 2 training session described above. in those sessions, my watch does not record phases, it just set to beep when I'm out of the blue zone.
 
I also look at what the Hell else is going on in my life. If I've got busy/disrupted/disorderly schedule I tend to go with a fixed time-rate (20-40 minutes) either with EMOM (for some solid volume) or 'by feel' (my heart rate falls to around 130-135 BPM). Managing recovery is the two word TLDR for something like this.
 
Symanoy said:
I'm still very much learning about A+A and looking forward to reading the book when it arrives. From what everyone has said, can timeless swings as per S&S be considered A+A?? It seems its typically around 5 reps rather than ten, but the rest/recovery seems to be the same?
Click to expand...
Yes, the timeless aspect is important. It is still anti-glycolytic training.

Here is what Al Ciampa has said on the question of S&S being A+A or not (source):
Al Ciampa said:
S&S swings is alactic work+aerobic recovery “IF” you do not crunch the rest intervals, whether driven by ego or, “it feels easy today”. For the plan to work, you have to stimulate the body for the adaptation you seek.

That you can do more work in less time (condensed S&S swings), on any given day, does not mean you are stimulating the proper cellular adaptations, and so, you will hit a wall in your training, re: not make it to the next bell size, or not achieve 100 x swings in 5 min with your current bell.

The “thing” that you should be trying to stimulate with this protocol is doing more work under aerobic-dominant fueling. This takes patience and discipline. Rest longer, be patient, do the work, and over a short period of time, you will increase your work output while still being aerobic. Then, you can “test” while fueled predominantly by glycolysis. Whatever your test outcome, go back to training under aerobic fueling.

Just because glycolysis is always there to kick in, like a turbo charger, and increase your output, does not mean that this is also the goal of your training. So, rest longer… do not forcefully reduce your rest periods… let your body adapt and your rest periods will natrually decrease… I’m certain that I read this some place before…. ;]

There is some anecdotal evidence that if you train properly and patiently, you can achieve 100 x swings in 5 min while being aerobic. So, train to a HR, or lactate threshold, or rest longer during your swings—whatever you like to call it–but training is different from competing.
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I'll say, to echo @Xcal and @Al Ciampa there, timed or timeless, I have conceptualized it in this way.

When training A+A, I'm looking to not exceed my RIR which for these purposes is "rest-in-reserve".

An essential element of A+A training is relatively complete rest.
The first and last reps of the first and last set should feel as similar as possible.

I use the idea of rest-in-reserve to mean that my rest intervals should be long enough to exceed my recovery needs. There should be a period of time before I start the next set where I feel (at least partially) like I did before I started the session.

Very low heart rate
A sensation that at least resembles Freshness in the system
Breathing easily
Lack of pump in the muscles

By these metrics, With my money weight, say my S bell (as measured from S&S) I can generally do singles on 30s intervals for 100 reps. Doubles and triples go well in 45 s intervals. Sets of 5 I can do on the minute. But a set of 10 usually calls for 3 minutes of rest to get 100 reps meeting the criteria of not outrunning my rest-in-reserve; especially in my last sets.

But when I run something like 015 with my 40kg swings (S+) and my pushups at ≈250 lbs. I need 4 minutes instead of 3 to not outrun my rest-in-reserve. So, I add that time so that my system can get back to neutral before I start again.

Maintain some Rest-in-Reserve and you'll be in the ballpark whether timed or untimed.
If timed - take note of how your recovery went in your last sets.
If untimed - make sure you enjoy 5-10 seconds (or 10-20s whatever maintains a high caliber quality of reps) of having already achieved sufficient recovery before you begin again.
 
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