all posts post new thread

Other/Mixed A+A with strict or relaxed rests?

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Erik W

Level 6 Valued Member
I've been thinking about this lately. I'm contemplating the idea of programming LCCJ more like Iron Cardio, or timeless S&S, where the rests aren't strictly timed. I'm thinking about it like setting a timer and just doing sets for that time, while passing the talk test before each set, or at least settling my breathing enough that I could.

As long as I don't take ridiculously long rests between sets, do you see any reason why it wouldn't work for the purposes of A+A? I feel like it would be like a more relaxed version of following SE Template #4, as opposed to the strict rules of KBSF. I dunno. Just been thinking about this.

This feels like one of those questions where my martial arts teacher would say maybe I know enough to answer my own question and then ask me, "What do you think?" I've attended a Strong Endurance workshop. I've read a lot on the subject. Maybe I'm just curious about the conversation the question might spark. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.
 
I've been thinking about this lately. I'm contemplating the idea of programming LCCJ more like Iron Cardio, or timeless S&S, where the rests aren't strictly timed. I'm thinking about it like setting a timer and just doing sets for that time, while passing the talk test before each set, or at least settling my breathing enough that I could.

As long as I don't take ridiculously long rests between sets, do you see any reason why it wouldn't work for the purposes of A+A? I feel like it would be like a more relaxed version of following SE Template #4, as opposed to the strict rules of KBSF. I dunno. Just been thinking about this.

This feels like one of those questions where my martial arts teacher would say maybe I know enough to answer my own question and then ask me, "What do you think?" I've attended a Strong Endurance workshop. I've read a lot on the subject. Maybe I'm just curious about the conversation the question might spark. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.
I prefer to do all my A&A work on the minute. Some people do, some not so much. I have a billion things going on in my life so my time to get my work in is timed out with the rest of my schedule. On occasion I will just go by feel but not very often. I know that true A&A is to rest until 100% ready to go, I just prefer to have it timed out.
 
I prefer to use a timer, because I'm stupid. :) I always perform better when I don't.

I confess that the most interesting version of this is using a timer and a HRM. You can track your progress over time as you do the same session over and over. I don't usually use the HRM, and for the reason given above.

-S-
 
I confess that the most interesting version of this is using a timer and a HRM. You can track your progress over time as you do the same session over and over. I don't usually use the HRM, and for the reason given above.

-S-
I do the "Best Ever" protocol with a HR monitor and go until I break a certain threshold, because I am not at all confident in my ability to consistently apply the talk test.
 
Yes, the "classic" A+A style of training, that I gleaned mainly from Al Ciampa, is to rest generously by feel such that you can maintain high power for your desired number of repeats. So it's the target number of repeats that defines the session and the rest is the variable. I don't use the talk test as a metric, but just my ability to maintain the same full power from set to set, and use my conservative judgment based on experience to know how much rest that requires.

One way I cook it when using a clock instead of resting by feel is to set a very generous rest interval that seems way too long at the beginning of a session, so it will still be reasonably generous at the end of a long session. For sets of 5, that's usually 2 minutes and up, and never less than 1:30 nowadays for even a short 20 repeat session. I've gone as low as 1:20 at times in the past, but that's more of a slog and getting a bit away from the relaxed feel I want with A+A, and I never go as fast as on the minute for sets of 5. If I can go that fast and recover sufficiently over 20-60 repeats, I feel like I'm using too light a weight.

I want to be able to use the heaviest weight I can snatch or double clean aggressively (I've never gravitated to swings or any form of jerk, just personal preference), make every set powerful, and keep going for a lot of repeats. Even though each set is full power, I want the overall effort to be relaxed and let the accumulated time and volume do the work. I think of it as practice recovering between repeats as much as practice doing the reps, and I want all the reps to be fresh reps, not tired reps.

The other way, such as in KBSF, is to keep the rest interval fixed and relatively shorter, and limit sessions by the talk test. So the rest interval defines the session and number of repeats will be the variable.

Personally, I choose the method based more on the type of session I enjoy and what I want to get better at, more than any specific physiological goal. I just don't enjoy sessions governed by the talk test, so I don't use that method, and I have no interest in anything involving a heartrate monitor, so I don't use any method that requires one.

More recently (the past couple of years), I gravitate more toward variations of the Q&D 044 template for snatches, double cleans, and double outside the legs swings, using rep schemes between 5/2 and 15/2, depending on the weight, mixed in with more relaxed sessions based on the 015 template (10 x 10 on the 3:00).
 
Last edited:
I prefer to do all my A&A work on the minute. Some people do, some not so much. I have a billion things going on in my life so my time to get my work in is timed out with the rest of my schedule. On occasion I will just go by feel but not very often. I know that true A&A is to rest until 100% ready to go, I just prefer to have it timed out.
I do this exactly as well. I'd love to take my time and not have clocked sessions, but my 530am workout is the only time I can really schedule consistent practice and stick to it.
My weapon of choice is the KB Snatch. I typically go for 4 reps EMOM. Sometime I'll go with 5 reps every 75 secs, but I'll take the time to write out on my whiteboard the start times for each repeat. Another thing I do, and it's totally to take any guesswork out of it; I start my timer and start my first repeat on the 1:00. Super easy to know how many "on the minute repeats I've done".

Additionally, and keeping with the work/rest ratio of 1:5, the 4 reps take 10 secs, the next 50 secs rest. I find with A+A snatches, if I don't have to think about anything, except expressing as much explosiveness in the movement, I have a better session.
 
I do this exactly as well. I'd love to take my time and not have clocked sessions, but my 530am workout is the only time I can really schedule consistent practice and stick to it.
My weapon of choice is the KB Snatch. I typically go for 4 reps EMOM. Sometime I'll go with 5 reps every 75 secs, but I'll take the time to write out on my whiteboard the start times for each repeat. Another thing I do, and it's totally to take any guesswork out of it; I start my timer and start my first repeat on the 1:00. Super easy to know how many "on the minute repeats I've done".

Additionally, and keeping with the work/rest ratio of 1:5, the 4 reps take 10 secs, the next 50 secs rest. I find with A+A snatches, if I don't have to think about anything, except expressing as much explosiveness in the movement, I have a better session.
Nice way of handling it.

Btw, Impetus Interval timer works great for Android. With the advanced settings you can count rounds up (and use intervals such as 75 seconds).
 
Nice way of handling it.

Btw, Impetus Interval timer works great for Android. With the advanced settings you can count rounds up (and use intervals such as 75 seconds).
I like that suggestion, thank you. I usually just use my Garmin watch for a timer. I've gotten into the habit of not using my phone during sessions, based on the fact I use my phone too much as it is. But I realize I'm probably missing out on some cool timers/apps.
 
Thanks for your feedback, folks. I've been practicing Iron Cardio for a few months, and have come to like the sort of self-paced pattern and the flexibility of the system.

The last time I ran KBSF, I didn't mind the strict times, but I was thinking about trying it with more relaxed rest intervals. While it would no longer be KBSF in the strictest sense, I think this would still work well as a way to perform A+A.

When I run these programs with strict set times, I usually use an interval timer app. I really wish I still had my old IronMan watch. I do dislike fiddling with my phone for every dang thing.
 
I have used freestyle, timed and HR methods for my A+A. My preference is to use HR as my guide, not starting the next repeat until my HR has returned to 105 BPM (160 minus my age). It is interesting to observe the impacts that certain factors (sleep, temp etc) have on recovery times.
 
So, I feel like I may be over simplifying my understanding. But people are describing A+A in two core ways;
i) longer rest or timeless
ii) EMOM or shorter periods
At one extreme (i) is "A+rest", while at the other (ii) it is "some A+A".
Presumably a mix of interset times is going to be optimum in the long term as sometimes the power will be emphasised and trained, and sometimes the aerobic recovery will be emphasised and trained.

This is why I like the KBSF protocols so much.
a) You start with avoiding poor interset recovery and build volume as your recovery improves.
b) Then you reduce recovery time and build up the volume again.

For example, with swings
1) start around 50 total reps in 10 minutes,
build up to
2) 100 reps in 20 minutes,
cut the rest
3) 100 reps in 10 minutes,
build towards
4) 200 reps in 20 minutes
 
My 2c
The core idea and principle is alactic efforts (eg short explosive, CP system dominates) with aerobic recovery.
The big intent of A+A is REPEAT OUTPUT with large dynamic movement - the goal is to maintain output. Therefore most A+A is longer rests. Some programs are a little longer work period, or a little shorter rest period, or maybe in series (small rest periods but then a longer one before the next series)

A+A is a bucket with various gradations essentially.
Power/explosive efforts are probably better than grinds if you want to maximize this. Due to tension and preload/afterload differences in the movements, something like Strength Aerobics is not going to get the same aerobic benefit as something like 5 snatches and full rest before the next round

Maybe another way - A+A is very 'park bench' to steal the great Dan John's phrase
 
Super.

@wespom9 Yeah, I was mainly considering how strict I really needed to be with the rest periods between explosive efforts. My motivation is that I'm thinking about a season to re-visit the LCCJ after spending some time with IC.

At the same time, though, I see @Pete L 's point. KBSF takes the guesswork out of increasing volume, then increasing density while cutting volume, and building the volume back up.

There is also probably the pedagogical point that KBSF is a "do this" type of program designed for people who are primarily practicing another sport.

This is all good food for thought, though. While it's true that the practical application might inform how I program for myself, I'm also interested in this from an academic perspective.
 
My first real exposure with otm training wer the initial Al's A+A 'lazy endurance' heavy one arm swing protocols. I had great results with it. I love the otm scheme ever since and (ab)use it a lot. 20 - 60 minutes provides some volume. With A+A set/repeats otm recovery gets incomplete and hr rises slowly through a good aerobic hr range which give you pretty good cardio...even as a standalone. Otm is very focused work, and when the clock hits the minute...I'm ready.

Pure A+A repeats resting for full breath recovery or hr is a bit less stressy but more (and heavier) volume can be done, great for exploring not the least of what you can do.

Both have too much good things.
 
I do this exactly as well. I'd love to take my time and not have clocked sessions, but my 530am workout is the only time I can really schedule consistent practice and stick to it.
My weapon of choice is the KB Snatch. I typically go for 4 reps EMOM. Sometime I'll go with 5 reps every 75 secs, but I'll take the time to write out on my whiteboard the start times for each repeat. Another thing I do, and it's totally to take any guesswork out of it; I start my timer and start my first repeat on the 1:00. Super easy to know how many "on the minute repeats I've done".

Additionally, and keeping with the work/rest ratio of 1:5, the 4 reps take 10 secs, the next 50 secs rest. I find with A+A snatches, if I don't have to think about anything, except expressing as much explosiveness in the movement, I have a better session.
 
Having done both, since my first staggering into A&A, I've found myself a big fan of EMOM protocols, with the number of sets I do based on a roll of a die (20-40 minutes) at present. KBSF really cottoned onto EMOM protocols and I like it's gradual buildup. I'm thinking of giving it another whack next year after a Quick and Dead cycle (044 version).
 
I use timer with single kettlebell work (focusing on "cardio" aspect) and relaxed rest pauses for double kettlebell work (more of a "workman strength").
For timed sessions I use mostly swings and clean & push press, for untimed I prefer double snatch or whatever similar to DFW.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom