Kettlebell A case for toes and swinging [poll inside]

[MikeTheBear]

My answer is really somewhere in between "purposely at a slight angle" and "do not pay attention." I'm short so I need to take a somewhat wider stance when I swing, and there is no way I could keep my feet pointed straight forward. So I turn my feet out slightly but this is more of natural thing that happens. I have no idea at what angle this is.

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C, it just depends on what one's priorities are. A lot of PL'ers squat with a wide stance and feet pointed straight. Pushing out at the knees is part of what they do. One can do that when performing a swing, too - it happens pretty fast, but it's not impossible - but it's not what you or I recommend because we like worrying about other things while we're swinging, not pushing our knees out, and we like that it puts a lot of the load on our glutes.

Hmm.... I'm still unconvinced that it's ever a good idea for the swing.

I'm sticking with Pavel's instructions in S&S for learning the hip hinge: p. 20 "Turn your toes slightly outward, a lot less than forty-five degrees."

And, as we all agree, the knees track the toes.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Hmm.... I'm still unconvinced that it's ever a good idea for the swing.

I'm sticking with Pavel's instructions in S&S for learning the hip hinge: p. 20 "Turn your toes slightly outward, a lot less than forty-five degrees."

And, as we all agree, the knees track the toes.

I agree. I suppose if someone is pigeon-toed then "turning the feet our slightly" would, in fact, result in the feet point forward. But the knee is a hinge joint that allows the lower leg to move back. It does not and certainly should not bend sideways. The PLers who point forward and push the knees out - seems to me they are moving the knee joint in a manner that it was never meant to move.

 

[Oscar]

Kelly Starrett likes squatting with parallel feet and the knees tracking outwards. My common sense tells me that it doesnt seem natural, however he suggests that this keeps the knee in a safe position.

 

[MikeTheBear]

If you Google image "Asian squat" you'll find that the majority of images show the feet turned out slightly, some very noticeably. Watch little kids squat and they turn their feet out slightly. These examples are relevant because they show the "natural" way to do things. Kids just drop into a squat - no one coaches them. Asians have been squatting as a way of "resting" for who knows how long.

With all due respect to Kelly Starrett, some things don't need to be taught in a two-day certification.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Good video here:

 

[Brett Jones]

@Brett Jones do you find your feet angle to change between different exercises? As in a little bit with this, and more with that.

Antti
Pretty consistent for me based on my hip structure

 

[Brett Jones]

Here's another article on this:
Why Movement Screening and Exercise Play by Different Rules | Functional Movement Systems

Kenny,
I'm aware of Anna's background but not yours - you are taking a pretty argumentative stance.
What is your experience with KBs etc...?

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Kenny,
I'm aware of Anna's background but not yours - you are taking a pretty argumentative stance.
What is your experience with KBs etc...?

Good question.

I see that you are a CSCS with a Masters in Rehabilitative Sciences.

My background has been listed on this Strong sight since I signed up under...

Information
https://www.strongfirst.com/community/members/kennycro-aol-com.7008

Below is the information listed on that page. I added to some of it.

1) B.A. Degree, Exercise Science Minor; with an additional 21 hours of Post Graduate Classes.

2) Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist, NSCA

3) Former International Powerlifting Referee

4) Current State Powerlifting Record Holder (Squat: 255 kg/562 lbs, Bench Press; 175 kg/375 lbs, Deadlift: 280 kg/617 lbs at a body weight of 208 lbs.) This information can be found online.

5) Director/Promoter of Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic, 2012 to Present

6) New Mexico State National Strength & Conditioning Association Advisory Board Memeber.

7) Former Powerlifting Meet Director/Promoter and Chairman of the Powerlifting Technical Rules Committee.

8) Powerlifting USA Magazine Author of Strength Training Articles.

a) "Building Strength and Power with Complex Training"

b) "Plyometric Bench Press Training For More Strength and Power"
Plyometric bench training for 1rm increases

c) "The No Deadlift, Deadlift Training Program"

d) "Squatting: To Be Explosive Train Explosive"

d) "The Inverted Training Pyramid", another magainze.

9) Commercial Fitness Sales Rep

Additional Background Information

1) Former USA Weightlifting Club Coach Certification.

2) NSCA Kettlebell Certification, Pavel Tsatouline

3) CNM College Exercise Science & Wellness Program, Advisory Board Member.

4) Guest Speaker

a) New Mexico State National Strength and Conditioning Clinic: "Variable Resistance Training"

b) Pasadena (now Los Angeles) CA Fitness Expo: "Plyometric Bench Press Training For Powerlifters"

c) Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic: "Occlusion/KAATSU Training For Hypertrophy"

My Posting Position On This Subject

The information that I have posted comes from research, empirical data and practical application with myself and working with individuals over the years on their training programs.

I understand that new theories and ideas that go against what individuals are indoctrinated with are met with resistance. That is my initial reaction, as well.

However, the only way to know if something works or not is to experiment with it. The second part of part of that is if it doesn't work, don't blame the program or the method. The fault may lie with you.

The Complex Training for Powerlifting article was met with resistance, specifically by Louie Simmons. I discussed Complex Training with Simmons couple of years before I co-wrote the article.

Simmons was unfamiliar with Complex Training; meaning he was commenting on something he did know anything about.

The ending to my Complex Training article addressed Simmons commenting on a method he was unfamiliar with and applies to all individuals who comment on method or concepts that lack knowledge in...

"I guarantee it will never work, if you never try it."

Ironically, a couple of years after I co-wrote the Complex Training article, Simmons wrote and article on the benefits of Complex Training.

With that said, I enjoy sharing information on what I have learned.

What you or other do with the information that I post is up to you.

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Shahaf Levin]

I changed my "vote" from literally forward to not paying attention. My toes are pretty much forward, and in swing stance my first tow is forward (instead of the second toe in literal-true-forward).

The reason I started with straight forward is since that what I learned from Becoming a supple Leopard and it felt good, stable, and natural, and that is what I was thinking that I am doing. So why have I changed my answer to not paying attention? A while back I watched @Brett Jones video on screening vs. exercising (he posted a link earlier in this thread), tested with the rocking method and found that when my feet are together they still point straight forward after rocking. I instinctively do a slight rock when setting up and so I do not really pay attention to the angle of my feet. I just checked and so the slight turn out, but it is definitely not purposeful.

So, what Brett said...

Pretty consistent for me based on my hip structure

 

[Brett Jones]

Kenny
Thanks for the reply and info (you can see my bio Here)

Volume of KB swings a week (~500) - These are performed in sets of 5 typically and up to sets of 10 with enough rest to keep speed and power up and (according to force plate data) fit very well into power work.

Foot angle - it is more about adjusting to the structure of the individual IMO (see articles I posted)

I haven't seen any "new theories" presented here but look forward to your contributions.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

(you can see my bio Here)

Brett,

Thanks for the site. I looked up your bio information (as I do with most individuals) before replying.

Volume of KB swings a week (~500) - These are performed in sets of 5 typically and up to sets of 10 with enough rest to keep speed and power up and (according to force plate data) fit very well into power work.

Makes Sense

The Sets of 5 makes sense.

Can you break that down for me in a little more detail?

1) How many Sets of 5 Repetition during a Training Session?

2) How many Days Per Week?

3) How heavy is the Kettlebell loading for these Set of 5 Repetitions?

500 Swings A Week

This still seem too high to me. Performing 500 swings a week would appear to mean that Kettlebell Swings for that particular training day would eliminate other exercises or minimize the intensity of the exercise to follow.

Can your provide me with an example of the exercise that would be preformed on a Kettlebell Swing Day like that?

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Brett Jones]

Kenny
Lots of different ways to work the program

I post a lot of my training on my blog which you can get to through my website www.appliedstrength.com

5 reps at the top of each minute x 20 min will hit a 100 for the day in very "easy" manner for example

There are a lot of training days where I only do Swings and Get-ups or Get-ups and snatches or the Strength Aerobics program (see my recent article).

It all depends on the overall program and goals but especially when using the KB as a standalone tool the volume etc...

To paraphrase "Ask not what your KB can do for you but what you need from your KB"

 

[offwidth]

This still seem too high to me. Performing 500 swings a week would appear to mean that Kettlebell Swings for that particular training day would eliminate other exercises or minimize the intensity of the exercise to follow.

And...? I don't really see the point that you are trying to make here. People have a wide variety of reasons and needs to train.
Personally, I (and I know many others) can easily do 500 swings a week, and fit in a bunch of other quality stuff. It really depends upon your fitness level.

 

[Antti]

There's no sense comparing 10*10 swings à la S&S and swings trained for 1RM max power. Horses for courses. No reason to beat around the bush.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Personally, I (and I know many others) can easily do 500 swings a week, and fit in a bunch of other quality stuff. It really depends upon your fitness level.

The See Saw Effect of Intensity

There is an inverse relationship between the number of exercise, essentially time, and intensity.

As Vince Gironda (one of the best Bodybuilding Coaches of his time) so aptly put it...

"You can train hard or long but NOT both."

The determine factor in the amount of intensity (relative the percentage of your 1 Repetition Max) is affected by it's "Pecking Order" in your program for that day.

Obviously, you are able to train the first exercise in your daily training program with higher intensity than you are with let's say the forth exercise for that day; due to muscle fatigue.

Muscle fatigue diminished Strength, Power, Speed and Technique. Thus, greater Strength, Power, Speed and better Technique are going to be developed with exercises that are at the top of the list rather than at the bottom of the list in the "Pecking Order".

Fitness Level

While one's fitness level plays a role the definitive factor in being able to "fit in a bunch of other quality stuff" is unsustainable due muscle fatigue and recovery.

That is the reason for...

The Order of Exercises

To elicit a greater training effect with Strength and Power in a particular exercise, it need to be placed first in the "Pecking Order" for that day's training session; ensure greater "Quality" compared to exercise at the bottom of the list.

That what might be termed as, "Quality Control".

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I post a lot of my training on my blog which you can get to through my website www.appliedstrength.com

Brett, I briefly look at your sight. I noticed you have something from Nick Winkelman, one of my favorites.

I will take more time and read over the information there.

There are a lot of training days where I only do Swings and Get-ups or Get-ups and snatches or the Strength Aerobics program (see my recent article).

I'll go over that information, as well.

With that said, let me present you with an interesting anomaly of the...

10 Sets of 50 Rep Kettlebell Swing

I sent a fellow Powerlifter (Mike Butkovich) the Contraras' Heavy Kettlebell Swing article. Mike's one of the smarter guy in the game.

Mike then purchases the heaviest Kettlebell that I sell, which is 100 lbs. However, it was too light for Mike. So, he writes up one part of his Deadlift Training Program to include 10 Sets of 50 Repetition for one training session.

The other part of his weekly Deadlift Training was Cluster Deadlift Power Training Sets, around 60% of his 1 Repetition Max performed with Inter-Repetition Rest Period of 30 seconds between each Repetition.

Results

His body weight increased about 15 lbs.

His Deadlift that was around 580 lbs went up to over 600 lbs. I am sure the weight gain helped is Deadlift but still am puzzled about his program.

Mike unorthodox Deadlift Training Program reminded me of...

Another Deadlifting Parallel Training Program

One nation's best 123 lb Powerlifter in the late 1970's was Byron Benoit.

Benoit's Squat was 440 lbs in a wrestling singlet. His Deadlift was 520 lbs.

I interviewed him about what his Deadlift Training was.

Benoit replied that his Deadlift Training revolved around high Repetition Back Raise/Hip Extension (essentially a Kettlebell movement pattern) for multiple sets of 15 to 20 Repetitions. That was it.

Your information along with the anecdotal training information on Butkovich and Benoit has me rethinking this.

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale

 

[offwidth]

Good good description regarding the relationship between intensity and duration. Thanks for the response.

However for my training objectives

While one's fitness level plays a role the definitive factor in being able to "fit in a bunch of other quality stuff" is unsustainable due muscle fatigue and recovery.

I manage just fine...

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I manage just fine...

"Manage Just Fine"

That term is a vague.

"Managing" exercise that fall father down int the "Pecking Order means your training intensity is going to decrease. That's the only way to manage those exercises.

It part of the "Nature of the Beast". It not good or bad, it just is.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[offwidth]

"Manage Just Fine"

That term is a vague.

I suppose it is...